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Featured LDS Alright then, Mormons, let's have it out

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by dzheremi, May 20, 2020 at 9:38 PM.

  1. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Since there are some of the Mormon religion here who apparently don't understand the difference between being willing to defend one's own faith and running away from it like a dog with their tail between their legs, and since this has led to a great many childlike retorts being mistaken for actual arguments as to why Christianity is wrong and Mormonism is right, I am starting this thread so that we can funnel all the Mormon mudslinging into one central place, and Mormons can have at Christians for our supposed unbiblicalness or whatever, and maybe, just maybe, actually defend their own religion on its own merits, if it can be so defended.

    I don't have high hopes (after all, Mormonism started by criticizing all existing Christian churches, so what basis do we have to believe that they'd ever stop if they could?), but be that as it may I do suspect, despite the lingering feeling that I should know better by now, that if given an open forum in which to air whatever specific grievances they may have, they will eventually come up with something.

    So this is meant to be such a forum. Go ahead, Mormons. Have at us. What on earth is so wrong and corrupt about the Christian faith that Mormonism supposedly rights?
     
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  2. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Strict obedience to the commandments of LOVE and diligence in seeking God with faith are of paramount importance according to the Bible. It is our duty as followers of Jesus Christ. He will grant salvation to the obedient.
     
  3. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Do you have anything specific? This is the same thing you post in almost every post you've ever made, regardless of the topic. It is a zero-content, coffee mug-ready platitude that doesn't necessarily mean anything specific unless you fill in the details.

    This thread is for specific claims, like when you have claimed that Christianity is wrong about the Bible. Presumably you have specific things in mind when you say that?

    I don't think it is profitable to anyone to respond to things like "We keep the commandments better" or whatever. Or at least if you're going to say that, show how that is. "We keep the commandments better, based on _____ (whatever Biblical passage you have in mind), which Mormonism fulfills with _____ (practice), whereas Christianity does not fulfill." This would give the other person the chance to say "Christianity understands that passage in this way, and follows it/fulfills it in this way."
     
  4. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Obedient to what and who?
    Jesus only talked about obedience to him, yet organised religions like the orthodox church and Mormons require obedience to them as well.
     
  5. Oxxide

    Oxxide New Member

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    Mormons, don't get me started. My grandfather got them to stop trying to recruit them by inviting them inside and speaking over them about the bible. hilarious.
     
  6. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    I have been over many of the scriptures that are ignored. Here is one of them:

    (New Testament | Matthew 5:16)

    16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    How many are doing this?
     
  7. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    (New Testament | Hebrews 5:8 - 9)

    8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
     
  8. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    (Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

    13 ΒΆ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
    14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
     
  9. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Are you serious? Who is doing good works? And without even showing how Mormonism outdoes or corrects whatever Christianity is supposedly not doing in this area? Okay...

    In general:

    "The Roman Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world. It has around 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals, with 65 percent of them located in developing countries." (from Catholic Church and health care - Wikipedia)

    The Roman Catholic Church also runs 1,358 institutes of higher education (colleges and universities) around the world.

    And of course the Roman Catholic Church is just the largest single church in the world. Many, many Protestant-led organizations focused on international and domestic aid, child development, homelessness, the prison population, etc. also exist, either directly tied to specific churches like Lutheran World Relief or the United Methodist Committee on Relief also exist, or not tied to particular churches, like the YMCA. There are also of course those organizations that are known primarily for their outreach/community aid, like the Salvation Army.

    On a more local level, here is what I get when I search Google for shelters (not even putting in "Christian" or "religious" or anything, just "shelters"):

    GODMOVESINC
    Salvation Army
    Family Promise (from their website: "Each evening, Family Promise transports the families to the host congregation for that week. At the church or temple each family is provided a private room with bedding as well as daily dinners and breakfasts all provided by volunteers")
    Union Gospel Mission
    Loaves & Fishes Jail Visitation
    Mercy Housing (connected with the Sisters of Mercy RC religious order)
    4th & Hope (grew out of Yolo Wayfarer Center Christian Mission, est. 1985)
    St. John's Program for Real Change

    etc. etc. (that's just the explicitly religiously-based options found on the first of 10+ pages of results; many of the other options were animal shelters and the like)

    It should be noted that my area is the 19th 'least churched' area in the United States according to a recent survey by Barna, so other locations are bound to have many more religiously-based options for services.

    At the level of my specific Church (so, talking about the Coptic Orthodox Church in particular), the diocese into which I was received (in New Mexico, so it was part of the Southern United States Diocese) runs the following social service programs:

    - Archangel Raphael Ministry (A.R.M.), "designed specifically for individuals with special needs---our brothers, sisters, children, and their families dealing with these challenges. Individuals with special needs include many challenges, but not limited to persons with Autism, Down Syndrome, Rhett's Syndrome, Tourette Syndrome, Turner Syndrome, Chromosomal Disorders, Psycho-Emotional Disorders, Speech Delays, Developmental Disabilities, Intellectual Disabilities, Physical Disabilities, Attention Deficit Disorders, Varying Exceptionalities, and other Exceptional Student Education."
    - Family Ministry Program
    - Helping Other People Excel (H.O.P.E.) social services program (everything from Covid-19 relief to flood relief to school supplies; the specific projects are dependent on whatever is going on; they do both larger projects aimed at the U.S.A., Egypt, and elsewhere, as well as individual projects, such as medical aid to specific needy individuals, paying for weddings, etc.)
    - LEAD Program (leadership program for young adults, 22 and up)
    - Orthodox Christian Campus Ministry
    - Pre-marital counseling/classes
    - St. Clement Coptic Orthodox Christian Academy (pre-K through 7th grade school in Nashville, TN)
    - St. Verena Medical Society (medical aid in Bolivia, local aid to the homeless in Houston TX, a yearly health fair at diocese churches providing free flu shots, medical advice from doctors, check ups, etc.)
    - St. Verena Resource Ministry (financial, material, employment and other types of assistance)
    - A mentoring program
    - St. Athanasius Theological Seminary (two locations: Tennessee and Florida)
    - Triumphant Christian Church (recovery/addiction services program, includes counseling, retreats, 9th-month rehab services program, etc.)

    That's just one diocese of one Church that isn't even particularly big in America (maybe 200 parishes total, and somewhere around a million or so members). Case in point, I can't really speak to the activities going on in northern/central California (where I am now), because we're part of a larger archdiocese of Northern California and the Western United States which actually doesn't have its own bishop, but instead a Papal residence (in Livermore, CA) and a secretary who attends to the needs of resident and visiting clergy (e.g., HG Bishop Angaelos of the UK was here for a retreat back in 2018, around when I first moved to Sacramento). This is not the way that things should be, traditionally, with such large swaths of the world 'directly' under the aegis of the Coptic Orthodox Pope (except, y'know...not directly, since he lives in Egypt), but this also a very small area, in terms of its number of churches and communities...sure, it's an archdiocese, but more so because of the massive territory it covers rather than the large number of people or individual churches or communities it houses (basically all of the western half of the USA outside of Southern California and Hawaii, from Northern California/Oregon/Washington on one end to UT/ID/MT on the other, with not even 20 parishes and communities between them; for comparison, the Southern United States diocese contains 55 individual churches and 40 communities spread from Arizona to Florida). So the fact that we're fielding anything (which we do, generally at the parish level) is practically a miracle.

    And of course other churches which may be better integrated/larger/older in the USA, like those of the Greeks and Russians, have their own histories, programs, outreach, etc. This post is probably long enough as it is. The take home point is: at the level of manifesting good works so as to glory our Father Who is in heaven, I really don't see how this charge can seriously be made against Christianity, and by Mormonism of all other religions. You run a huge missionary program dedicated to propagating Mormonism (naturally), and a relatively small everything else (a few BYU campuses around the world and online, right?), and things like "bishop's storehouses" or whatever they're called are run on the same 'worthiness' model that trips you up in practicing spiritual gate-keeping to your secret temples and such. Meanwhile, in Christianity, the ethos is "freely you have received, freely give" (Matthew 10:8).

    Since you have not made it obvious despite being told to in the OP, I'll ask you directly: on what basis do you claim that Mormonism does any of this 'better' or more than any actual Christian churches, or Christianity more generally? Because you raise more money via for-profit ventures, an exceedingly tiny fraction of which goes to various forms of outreach?

    According to Deseret News, the LDS charities have given an estimated $2.2 billion since 1985...which sounds super impressive, until you remember that the LDS church has quietly amassed $100 billion in its recently-revealed investment fund, meaning that 2.2% of that has been given, but over the last 35 years...that's about $63 million a year, which is peanuts to an organization that receives $7 billion per year in tithing -- 63 million divided by 7 billion is 0.009 (seriously; look it up). As a percentage, that's 0.9%, or just under 1%.

    0.9%.

    Over 35 years.

    WHAT THE SERIOUS HECK, MORMONISM?!?!

    Meanwhile, about 10 million tithers across the churches which reported donate approximately $50 billion yearly to churches and non-profits. (source)

    Hmm...$50 billion per year vs. $2.2 billion over 35 years. :scratch:

    No wonder you guys are so secretive about your finances! :idea:
     
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  10. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

    +1,279
    Mormon
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    Question - how much time does anyone here spend on trying to come up with arguments for why we're all going to hell and all of the other things we get flung at us?

    How does that compare to the time spent on fulfilling God's commandments to be upright, to care for those who need it, and be productive members of society?
     
  11. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    You mean like by all the organizations and programs I just listed, plus the thousands (maybe millions) more I didn't list? This message board is not Christianity itself; it's only about Christianity.

    Again, I want to hear specific criticism that Mormons have directed at Christianity, not this vague "fulfill the commandments" piffle, which Mormons apparently can't even show what it means or how they do it in some way that outdoes or corrects Christianity.

    What commandments how, when, and where?

    Either answer that, or get the heck out of my thread.

    You guys are awful at this so far. This all started because HITW made some vague allusions to how my Church can be questioned/criticized (which I agree, it certainly can, as can anyone's or any organization more generally), and yet now when you're all given the opportunity to do so you seem to have absolutely nothing of substance to say.
     
  12. TasteForTruth

    TasteForTruth Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

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    The reason I have posted here is to disabuse the public mind with regards to what the Restored Gospel is and teaches and means, as many errors are publicized here with regards to it. Beating others with the Restored Gospel is not an appealing idea at all.
     
  13. Jamesone5

    Jamesone5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is when there is no need for the "Restored" part. The Gospel of Christ has been around for almost 2000 years.
     
  14. TasteForTruth

    TasteForTruth Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

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    Actually, I responded here thinking that your reply was in the other thread. Gotta change my response to fit the context here.

    No, it is never needed that people beat one another with their beliefs, no matter how long they have generally been around.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020 at 3:30 PM
  15. Jamesone5

    Jamesone5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And yet Christ says this;

    Matthew 16:18
    And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

    Nothing about His church wearing out or needed repair.
    We are talking ONLY about the Gospel which you say needs to be restored by the way.
    .
     
  16. TasteForTruth

    TasteForTruth Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

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    Right, we're talking about the Restored Gospel. And, specifically, we are addressing your invitation of member of the LDS church to assault your beliefs with it. Are we still talking about that? Seems that you've moved into different territory now. I've offered that I don't have an interest in that (assaulting your beliefs with it). Not sure there is much more to discuss there. :)
     
  17. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Everyone -- what makes you think they don't?---by everyone--I do mean Christians. They just don't go around making a big deal of their good works to rack up points with God or man.
     
  18. Jamesone5

    Jamesone5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And, specifically, we are addressing your invitation of member of the LDS church to assault your beliefs with it. ----TasteForThruth


    ?????
     
  19. TasteForTruth

    TasteForTruth Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

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    This is the purpose of the thread, per your OP:

    That's what the words you just now quoted refer to. The topic of discussion is the battle you have invited members of the LDS church to wage on your beliefs.
     
  20. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    IT IS THE BATTLE THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FROM DAY ONE---SO---AS THE OP SAID---HAVE AT US.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020 at 6:56 PM
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