All things

[BNR32FAN]

Which means there is a purpose.

That’s an assumption.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Which means there is a purpose.

I believe that purpose is so that we could choose to love Him of our own free will or choose to reject Him of our own free will. How else can we love God if we don’t have free will and would any such love without free will be of any value to God?

 

[fhansen]

You have a distinction without a difference. If God allows evil to happen, and He could stop it, it’s no different than bringing a “greater good” out of sinful actions.

I didn't say those things weren't compatible. The incompatibility comes when we insist that God directly wills the evil that man does, that man has no choice in the matter IOW, rather than allowing freedom to reign for better or worse in this world, with worse often the result of the abuse of that freedom.

And in your view, He can’t actually bring a greater good without violating someone else’s free will.

I have no idea where that comes from. Rather than determining their wills for them, He allowed the brothers to do their evil little deed, then used it for good in spite of their intentions.

I think it’s best to believe that God has a purpose for sin, and even though we don’t understand it, we should give thanks in all circumstances. Count it all joy.

The Church teaches that God would not allow evil unless He intends to bring a greater good out of it-because His very nature is goodness itself, love to put it another way.

 

[Hammster]

That’s an assumption.

No, it’s not. Everything God does has purpose.

 

[Hammster]

I believe that purpose is so that we could choose to love Him of our own free will or choose to reject Him of our own free will. How else can we love God if we don’t have free will and would any such love without free will be of any value to God?

I think you are so hung up on free will that you are ignoring the point of the OP.

 

[Hammster]

I didn't say those things weren't compatible. The incompatibility comes when we insist that God directly wills the evil that man does, that man has no choice in the matter IOW, rather than allowing freedom to reign for better or worse in this world, with worse often the result of the abuse of that freedom.

I have never said that God directly causes man to do evil.

I have no idea where that comes from. Rather than determining their wills for them, He allowed the brothers to do their evil little deed, then used it for good in spite of their intentions.

Except that’s not what it says. Yes, he allowed the brothers to do evil, but it’s because that’s what He wanted to happen. He had a purpose.

The Church teaches that God would not allow evil unless He intends to bring a greater good out of it-because His very nature is goodness itself, love to put it another way.

Of course. He allows evil when it can be used to bring Him glory.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, it’s not. Everything God does has purpose.

Yes everything goes according to His plan. Did He orchestrate everything within the plan? No, but He has foreseen everything that will transpire and has deemed that this is the best outcome. Remember, He wanted everyone to be saved but they won’t be. So evidently not everything in His plan is what He desires to happen. Like the flood for example. He didn’t want to destroy the world, but He had to in order to make His plan fulfilled.

Edit: I don’t know perhaps what’s your saying is that God allows sin in order to fulfill His plan? I wouldn’t disagree with that if that’s your position.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think you are so hung up on free will that you are ignoring the point of the OP.

I wasn’t addressing the OP. I was replying to your post when you were insinuating that God is orchestrating sin in order to fulfill His plan. Sin is the result of free will not God’s decree. So any time you mention the origin of sin then naturally I’m going to mention free will.

 

[Dave L]

I wouldn’t say someone is a liar if they truly believe they are speaking the truth. They’ve simply made a mistake. I lie is intended to deceive, a mistake is not.

We still have no control over what we believe or we wouldn't allow ourselves to be deceived.

 

[Dave L]

Then your saying God is the author of sin.


“And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭NASB

Is God the spirit working in the sons of disobedience? Let me give you a hint. Notice the lower case “s” in the word spirit? You’ll never see a lower case letter at the beginning of any word referring to God in the scriptures.

He is the cause of sin. For his glory (the highest good). People are the author of sin. Wanting to sin more than not.

 

[Dave L]

John then goes onto say that we do not continue to sin (1 John 3:6-9; 1 John 5:18). Paul also says this in Hebrews 10:26. How would we reconcile this theologically? I always took 1 John 1:8 as reference of our sinful state of being prior to regeneration, and thus requiring confession.

Why does Paul crave deliverance from this body of death? Fighting against sin happens only with the born-again.

 

[Hammster]

Yes everything goes according to His plan. Did He orchestrate everything within the plan? No, but He has foreseen everything that will transpire and has deemed that this is the best outcome. Remember, He wanted everyone to be saved but they won’t be. So evidently not everything in His plan is what He desires to happen. Like the flood for example. He didn’t want to destroy the world, but He had to in order to make His plan fulfilled.

Edit: I don’t know perhaps what’s your saying is that God allows sin in order to fulfill His plan? I wouldn’t disagree with that if that’s your position.

Whether He directly causes it, or lets it play, He’s still in complete control. So yes to your edit.

 

[Hammster]

I wasn’t addressing the OP. I was replying to your post when you were insinuating that God is orchestrating sin in order to fulfill His plan. Sin is the result of free will not God’s decree. So any time you mention the origin of sin then naturally I’m going to mention free will.

It’s His decree if He allows it.

 

[Cormack]

It is easy to conclude how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice by the suggestion that evils come to be not by His will, but merely by His permission. Of course, so far as they are evils … I admit they are not pleasing to God. But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God idly permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.​

John Calvin on the author of evil ^^^^ Mere permission isn’t enough, but rather is described as “quite a frivolous refuge.”

 

[fhansen]

I have never said that God directly causes man to do evil.

You say that man cannot do otherwise, that his will is not involved in choosing between good or evil because he will only choose as is predetermined. But that man still deserves eternal punishment for doing evil!

Except that’s not what it says. Yes, he allowed the brothers to do evil, but it’s because that’s what He wanted to happen. He had a purpose.

Nowhere does it say that God put the evil desire in their hearts. He used the evil rather than willing it. Otherwise we're back to a very schizoid, unpredictable, untrustworthy God, one who wills ("wanted" as you say) evil in spite of your objections to that concept above.

Of course. He allows evil when it can be used to bring Him glory.

When it can be used to bring about goodness in any case.

 

[Swag365]

It’s His decree if He allows it.

Yeah only in HammsterLand is that true. On the rest of the planet Earth "decree" and "allow" have different meanings.

Definition of DECREE
decree: to command or enjoin by or as if by decree

Definition of ALLOW
allow: to make a possibility : ADMIT

 

[Hammster]

You say that man cannot do otherwise, that his will is not involved in choosing between good or evil because he will only choose as is predetermined. But that man still deserves eternal punishment for doing evil!

That’s not the topic of the OP. It’s about giving thanks for all things.

Nowhere does it say that God put the evil desire in their hearts. He used the evil rather than willing it. Otherwise we're back to a very schizoid, unpredictable, untrustworthy, God, one who wills ("wanted" as you say) evil in spite of your objections to that concept above.

Did I say that God put evil desires in their hearts? No. No I didn’t.

 

[Cormack]

Yeah only in HammsterLand is that true. On the rest of the planet Earth "decree" and "allow" have different meanings.

Definition of DECREE
decree: to command or enjoin by or as if by decree

Definition of ALLOW
allow: to make a possibility : ADMIT

Calvin admits to the same by discouraging the use of permission language.

 

[Hammster]

Yeah only in HammsterLand is that true. On the rest of the planet Earth "decree" and "allow" have different meanings.

Definition of DECREE
decree: to command or enjoin by or as if by decree

Definition of ALLOW
allow: to make a possibility : ADMIT

Did He decree the cross?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Whether He directly causes it, or lets it play, He’s still in complete control. So yes to your edit.

I believe He allows it and it is definitely according to His plan. Nothing will happen that is not according to His plan.