All things

[Hammster]

The evil experienced down through the centuries on this earth can only serve a purpose if the will of man is the cause of it, and is also employed in the ultimate shunning of it. Otherwise creation as we know it is an exercise in futility, with all the evil and the suffering it produced being gratuitous. God may as well had avoided it and stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the rest at the beginning if His plan wasn’t to gradually, patiently, turn man from evil to good, darkness to light, appealing to and drawing man’s will towards that light with His creation’s own justice and righteousness being perfected as that will increasingly aligns with His: for goodness and against sin/evil. Then something of value and worth is produced out of the mess and chaos of this world.

The bottom line is, does God use evil to accomplish His will?

 

[John Mullally]

Sorry but you ran off from an important part of this conversation, which is what part God plays in creating evil. Let's pick up from there:

Isaiah 45:7
Lamentations 3:38
Amos 3:6

God keeps his word per Lamentations 3:38. Does that mean everything is exactly to plan - with no free will being exercised by man causing unwanted outcomes? Speaking more about lamentations, how does Matthew 23:37 make sense? Here Jesus is lamenting over mans rebellion (you would not let me). You would not let me does not infer everything is going to plan.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Can there be sin without a free will? I think is a valid question.

If we are not compelled by free will then we cannot be held responsible for our actions. If we are compelled by God’s will then we’re saying that God has made us sin. So this would mean that God told Adam & Eve not to eat from the tree of life then made them eat from it and punished them for it. If God didn’t want Adam & Eve to live in the Garden of Eden He didn’t have to put them there in the first place. He gave them the opportunity knowing that they would fail and thus His judgement upon them is just because He gave them the option to choose. If not then ultimately God would be the one responsible for man’s fallen nature.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Free will makes law possible. It just cannot save. Law cannot save. Before the new birth, people are only free to sin. After the new birth, they are not free to practice sin.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

James says people are not free to control their tongues. If free will could save, you would trust in it instead of Christ.

Where does James say this?

 

[Dave L]

Where does James say this?

James says you cannot control your tongue. So how can you have free will?

 

[BNR32FAN]

God condemned the entire human race in Adam. He flunked the test proving we are a corrupt species.

That’s a ridiculous statement. God did not condemn all mankind for Adam’s sin. There were plenty of people declared righteous by God since creation. Enoch, Elijah, Methuselah, Noah, Abraham, I mean this list is quite long.

 

[BNR32FAN]

James says you cannot control your tongue. So how can you have free will?

Where does he say this? You keep claiming he said this but I can’t find it.

 

[All Glory To God]

@All Glory To God (take 1...and action!)



@All Glory To God (take 2!)...



Not the same thing ^^^^^ If you assume God judging a wicked nation by bringing an enemy against them is “the creation of evil,” that’s something to be proved, not assumed. You proved nothing and assumed everything, and those assumptions based upon Isaiah, Amos and Lamentations were mistaken.

Those verses do not suggest he is responding, by judgement. I think it's clear he is taking a lead role and is the cause.

 

[Dave L]

Where does he say this? You keep claiming he said this but I can’t find it.

“But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.” James 3:8 (KJV 1900)

 

[All Glory To God]

God keeps his word per Lamentations 3:38. Does that mean everything is exactly to plan - with no free will being exercised by man causing unwanted outcomes? Speaking more about lamentations, how does Matthew 23:37 make sense? Here Jesus is lamenting over mans rebellion (you would not let me). You would not let me does not infer everything is going to plan.

So God's will is all should be saved and none should perish, and yet creation can choose to perish?

So I guess this means God does not see his will played out?

 

[BNR32FAN]

“But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.” James 3:8 (KJV 1900)

Sorry I hadn’t got to the post where you posted this verse. We can control our tongue after we repent and receive the Holy Spirit.


“If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭NASB

 

[BNR32FAN]

How can God see anything he did not create? Are you suggesting there is another god?

I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. I never implied that God did not create us. He created us as sentient beings capable of making choices. He did not preprogram us to be robots only capable of acting out the program He installed.

 

[Hammster]

I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. I never implied that God did not create us. He created us as sentient beings capable of making choices. He did not preprogram us to be robots only capable of acting out the program He installed. View attachment 288693

Does God have any control or influence over your life?

 

[fhansen]

The bottom line is, does God use evil to accomplish His will?

Yes, He does, knowing that it will occur without willing the actual evil itself. Again, the experience-the knowing- of evil for a human is tantamount to touching a hot stove. At some point we learn that evil is to be detested and shunned, that no good comes of it, that we should choose good alone, placing the ultimate Good, God, Himself, above all else. This doesn't happen overnight and that's why we're here in this exile from God and the pure unadulterated goodness that full communion with Him otherwise entails, to learn the difference, to identify and choose what's truly of value and what is not, to be formed and molded in will so that, with the help of grace as God reaches down to us, we might make the right choice. Ultimately evil, having served its purpose, will no longer be allowed to coexist with good and all things will be fully consummated as creation comes into complete alignment with God's will-or not.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So God's will is all should be saved and none should perish, and yet creation can choose to perish?

So I guess this means God does not see his will played out?

The Greek word translated to will also means to desire. God doesn’t always get what He wants. He didn’t want to destroy everyone in the flood but He did because it was a necessary part of His plan.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Does God have any control or influence over your life?

Absolutely, He has given me the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, He does, knowing that it will occur without willing the actual evil itself. Again, the experience-the knowing- of evil for a human is tantamount to touching a hot stove. At some point we learn that evil is to be detested and shunned, that no good comes of it, that we should choose good alone, placing the ultimate Good, God, Himself, above all else. This doesn't happen overnight and that's why we're here in this exile from God and the pure unadulterated goodness that full communion with Him otherwise entails, to learn the difference, to identify and choose what's truly of value and what is not, to be formed and molded in will so that, with the help of grace as God reaches down to us, we might make the right choice. Ultimately evil, having served its purpose, will no longer be allowed to coexist with good and all things will be fully consummated as creation comes into complete alignment with God's will-or not.

Did God will the cross?

 

[Hammster]

Absolutely, He has given me the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Does He have authority to stop you from sinning? Or to allow you to sin?

 

[BNR32FAN]

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

That picture wasn’t directed towards God it was directed towards Calvin’s doctrines.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Does He have authority to stop you from sinning? Or to allow you to sin?

I don’t think authority is the right word here. Yeah He has the authority to stop me from sinning. Does He exercise that authority? No because I still sin from time to time.