ALL Scriptures For and Against Once Saved Always Saved

MDC · Mar 19, 2018

Asaph George said:
Hello brother

Thank you very much for these kind and encouraging words. I need to hear some sometimes

My brother, I couldn't have summarized better what you just said here. The whole issue of OSAS not only is unbiblical but also goes against common sense. As soon as I heard about the doctrine, I was shocked to see how many believe in it. I came out of false doctrinal beliefs in the Catholic church. So I knew already that the answer should be in the Bible and it is. It is simply not there.

There is comfort and assurance, we are supposed to have assurance when walking in Christ. Also there is the concept of predestination and it is right there in the Bible. God's will is sovereign and we don't deny it. But the beauty of the whole thing is that He will have His way even though we can say no to Him. That is how Mighty our God is . Sure also the Spirit seals us and keeps us. But from there to say that we are saved even if we continue sinning is just pushing TOO MUCH unto these verses. The word "sin" is not even in these verses showing how much biblical support this doctrine is lacking.

It is true also what you said, it goes against the love of God. The issue is this, when I get to the end of the issue with OSAS brothers, I always ask them: "if God desires that no one perish and that all come to repentance, why doesn't He do it?"

Here many OSAS brothers start talking in weird ways like: "We cannot understand everything" or "it is the inscrutable wisdom of God", etc..

This to me is rational proof that it doesn't hold. I believe that there is much more behind the scenes that is happening. We don't battle against flesh and blood, the doctrine OSAS to me is a new modernized version of the same lie of the dragon in the garden: "Did He really say you will not die?"

I never look down on my OSAS brothers, I love them but when it comes to the truth, of course, OSAS is not true. When we go into the deep things, when we look honestly at the context and the words being used in the Bible, when we dig deep, we will see the truth if we are honest.

The parable of the 10 virgins and John 15 alone are a big sign it doesn't hold. I have never met someone from OSAS who have a good answer to these. They have to ignore them or twist them in a weird way.

God bless you brother. Hopefully we talk more!

You never came out of Catholicism. Simply because their core belief of justification is works based and centered around the free will autonomy of man. They believe exactly what you believe on this doctrine of justification. They despise the gospel of grace and is why they teach what they teach. You speak of predestination and that you don’t deny Gods Sovereignty in salvation but yet the doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ is upheld by you. What a contradiction! Of course you deny Gods Sovereignty in salvation. Why else would you hold to what you do. You then say that the Spirit seals us and keeps us but yet you hold to the contradiction that the elect can fall away. So how exactly does Gods Spirit keep us if we can fall away to perdition? It’s very evident that those who teach such arrogant self righteous doctrines such as losing eternal life in Christ, have not been granted repentance and have not truly agonized over their wretched self so they may flee to Christ for redemption. Seek Gods mercy and to be found in Christ

Bible Highlighter · Mar 19, 2018

MDC said:
You never came out of Catholicism. Simply because their core belief of justification is works based and centered around the free will autonomy of man. They believe exactly what you believe on this doctrine of justification. They despise the gospel of grace and is why they teach what they teach. You speak of predestination and that you don’t deny Gods Sovereignty in salvation but yet the doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ is upheld by you. What a contradiction! Of course you deny Gods Sovereignty in salvation. Why else would you hold to what you do. You then say that the Spirit seals us and keeps us but yet you hold to the contradiction that the elect can fall away. So how exactly does Gods Spirit keep us if we can fall away to perdition? It’s very evident that those who teach such arrogant self righteous doctrines such as losing eternal life in Christ, have not been granted repentance and have not truly agonized over their wretched self so they may flee to Christ for redemption. Seek Gods mercy and to be found in Christ

Does God force regenerate some to be saved and leave others to simply be damned? If so, then what is the purpose of the Judgment? It would be like creating a robot and programming it to kill and then later putting that same robot on trial for killing. It makes no sense.

As for justification by works:

James says this:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Now, does that mean we are saved by works? Well, yes; In addition to God's grace, we are saved by works. For are you not saved by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ with His death and resurrection? Are you not saved by the working of God in your life to make you holy? For we are not saved by our own works alone without God, but we are saved by the work of the Lord done through us. For if you say you are not saved by works, then you have to conclude the most farthest extreme position that you can be saved without good works. But what about Matthew 25:31-46? This means that a believer can be saved without loving others and or they can be saved even if they remain in their sins. The opposite of good works is evil works or being unfruitful for God. Do you believe you can do evil and be saved? Surely not.

As for Catholicism: It is still vastly different than if one were to follow what the Bible says alone. So that is simply an ad hominem.

MDC · Mar 19, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Does God force regenerate some to be saved and leave others to simply be damned? If so, then what is the purpose of the Judgment? It would be like creating a robot and programming it to kill and then later putting robot on trial for killing. It makes no sense.

As for salvation by works: Well, technically we are saved by works. Are you not saved by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ with His death and resurrection? Are you not saved by the working of God in your life to make you holy? For we are not saved by our own works alone without God, but we are saved by the work of the Lord done through us. For if you say you are not saved by works, then you have to conclude the most farthest extreme position that you can be saved without good works. But what about Matthew 25:31-46? This means that a believer can be saved without loving others and or they can be saved even if they remain in their sins. The opposite of good works is evil works or being unfruitful for God. Do you believe you can do evil and be saved? Surely not.

As for Catholicism: It is still vastly different than if one were to follow what the Bible says alone. So that is simply an ad hominem.

Did you force yourself to be physically birthed? Or did you have a choice in the matter? Your emotional humanistic philosophical rant of why God does what He does in the salvation and damnation of sinners is why you believe what you do. You don’t believe God is Sovereign. How can you when you believe mans will is autonomous? Man is responsible for his own sin.. whether God has predestined him a reprobate or not. Romans 9 is perverted because the lofty and arrogant free willers cant believe they aren’t sovereign over their own desires and choices in life. Poor baby’s! And the doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ definitely DENIES the works of Christ in salvation. As being a modern day version of the Judaizers, they seek to establish their own righteousness. So a sinners works is the basis for justification according to these folk. Salvation is not synergistic or cooperative. Good works is the result or fruit of being saved, not the cause or basis for maintaining salvation. So yes, in essence you do agree with Catholicism on how one is justified

Bible Highlighter · Mar 19, 2018

MDC said:
Did you force yourself to be physically birthed? Or did you have a choice in the matter?

There is a point of taking the analogy too far.
If our spiritual birth is supposed to be exactly like our physical birth in every way literally then who is our mother spiritually? What is the umbilical cord symbolize spiritually? What about the 9 month pregnancy part?

God's Word says that the "new birth" is defined as hearing of the Word, not by an instantaneous act that precedes faith: "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (James 1:18). "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God" (1 Peter 1:23).

You said:
Your emotional humanistic philosophical rant of why God does what He does in the salvation and damnation of sinners is why you believe what you do. You don’t believe God is Sovereign.

I believe God is sovereign just fine. I just do not believe He is sovereign as you say. Calvinism attempts to paint God in a bad moral light. For example: If a coast guard rescued only two people in the water when he could have rescued all five of them, it would be considered inhumane on his part to not rescue them (even if he knew they would do wrong later). God sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

You said:
How can you when you believe mans will is autonomous?

How can you not? When was the last time you did something of your own free will choice? In fact, we see in Scripture men refuse the will of the Lord. For Jesus said,

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

You said:
Man is responsible for his own sin.. whether God has predestined him a reprobate or not.

Right. That would be like a master kicking his dog across the room like a football for pooping on the carpet even when the master knows that the poor little guy has an uncontrollable pooping problem. That would be like yelling at the poor to get a job. It wouldn't make any sense for man to do such things. Why do you think God would act in a similar way?

You said:
Romans 9 is perverted because the lofty and arrogant free willers cant believe they aren’t sovereign over their own desires and choices in life.

What is the point of even arguing then if God is pulling both the strings of righteous and the strings of the unrighteous? If we are all just puppets then life would be pretty meaningless and without purpose.

You said:
Poor baby’s! And the doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ definitely DENIES the works of Christ in salvation.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?

You said:
As being a modern day version of the Judaizers,

Actually, the reason why Jesus had a problem with the Pharisees was not because they did not believe in a sin and still be saved gospel like many in the church today believe. The Pharisees actually ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, faith, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42).

You said:
they seek to establish their own righteousness.

When Paul says that the Jews established their own righteousness, he was talking about how they did man made traditions that did not apply to God's laws. One is not establishing their own righteousness if they are obeying God's commands in the New Testament (i.e. the New Covenant). To suggest otherwise is to suggest anarchy or rebellion against God and His good ways.

You said:
So a sinners works is the basis for justification according to these folk. Salvation is not synergistic or cooperative. Good works is the result or fruit of being saved, not the cause or basis for maintaining salvation. So yes, in essence you do agree with Catholicism on how one is justified

Salvation is synergistic. But you believe that you can say you are saved without works, right? How about holiness? Can a believer be saved by living unholy? Do you believe that a believer can die in one or two unrepentant sins like lying or lusting after a woman and still be saved? Whether you believe that or not, most in the Eternal Security camp do believe that (as long as they generally lived a holy life - whatever that means). But this would be turning God's grace into a license for immorality. Tell me. How is morality or God's goodness upheld in your belief? If a believer (in your church) is not living holy all of sudden, are they unsaved?

Ron Gurley · Mar 19, 2018

Parable of the 10 virgins:
Matthew 25:
1 Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, (CHURCH) who took their lamps and went out to meet the "bridegroom".(CHRIST)....13 Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.(of His Second Coming)

Refers to the Second Coming of Christ. Jesus is the "Bridegroom". The virgins are the "CHURCH" and "Bride" of Christ. BE READY!

John 15 was given ONLY for believers/disciples/followers. Only they can be branches in the True Vine.
God the Father prunes them to produce more and better fruit to His glory. The unfruitful works are burned up.

Bearing fruit is the result of obeying God’s commandments.

John 15 (NIV) (my extracts...comments)...Jesus is the Vine, The Father is the Vinedresser, and the Branches are Their followers
..."I am the vine; you (believers) are the branches.
If a man (ABIDES) remains (dwells) in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit;
apart from me you can do nothing....(of spiritual value?)
This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing (proving) yourselves to be my disciples(followers)
As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain (ABIDE) in my love.
If you obey my commands (precepts/teachings), you will remain (ABIDE) in my love,
just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain (ABIDE) in his love.
I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
My command is this: Love "one another" (each other) as I have loved you...
This is my command: Love "one another" (each other)

Ron Gurley · Mar 19, 2018

ALL OF Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. IS FALSE DOCTRINE!

Bible Highlighter · Mar 19, 2018

MDC said:
Did you force yourself to be physically birthed? Or did you have a choice in the matter? Your emotional humanistic philosophical rant of why God does what He does in the salvation and damnation of sinners is why you believe what you do. You don’t believe God is Sovereign. How can you when you believe mans will is autonomous? Man is responsible for his own sin.. whether God has predestined him a reprobate or not. Romans 9 is perverted because the lofty and arrogant free willers cant believe they aren’t sovereign over their own desires and choices in life. Poor baby’s! And the doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ definitely DENIES the works of Christ in salvation. As being a modern day version of the Judaizers, they seek to establish their own righteousness. So a sinners works is the basis for justification according to these folk. Salvation is not synergistic or cooperative. Good works is the result or fruit of being saved, not the cause or basis for maintaining salvation. So yes, in essence you do agree with Catholicism on how one is justified

James says very clearly that we are justified by works (James 2:24).
However, Paul says we are saved by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The key to understanding here is that James is talking about God's works (done through the believer) and Paul is talking about man's works like false traditions or Old Covenant commands that do not apply anymore (like circumcision). Yes, we are Initially and Ultimately saved by God's grace without works. We came to Jesus seeking His forgiveness and we believed in His death and resurrection to save us and we became saved without works. If we sin again, we do not go out and do another work to offset that sin. We go to God's grace to get clean (See: 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9). Works (and holiness) is merely the by-product of abiding in the Lord because it is the Lord who does the good work within a person.

Asaph George · Mar 20, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Hello again George.

It is comforting to know we are fighting for the truth together in love.
Iron sharpens iron, brother.

As for Catholicism: Well, I have tried to argue against Catholicism here at Christian Forums and it did not go over well. Meaning, I got penalized for it. So I try to pick and choose my battles elsewhere. So be careful about arguing against Catholicism here. You can debate certain topics in regards to the RCC (I do believe in certain threads only), but be careful. Also, we cannot say that their belief is false (even if we may think that). I could be wrong, but I think we can say a particular belief is unbiblical but we cannot say a belief or denomination is false (if my memory on the rules serves me correctly). Granted, if it is something totally ridiculous like the Flat Earth belief, that is another matter. We can say that the Flat Earth belief is false because most Christians and everyone on the planet knows that such a belief is simply not true.

Yes, I believe there is comfort and assurance. We can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). If we do happen to sin or stumble on occasion in this life, 1 John 1:9 is a promise we can bank on (Not as a license to sin, but as a means to overcome sin).

Calvinists believe there is no free will in regards to accepting Christ. Non-Calvinistic Eternal Security Proponents believe there is no free will after salvation (because a believer is forever forced with the decision in being saved after coming to the faith). In other words, this is also "forced salvation" which runs contrary to what "true love" is all about. For we know that "true love" exists when two people BOTH agree to love each other. If the other person forces the other person to love them, then it is not real.

Forced Love:

In other words, if you believe in "Eternal Security" or "OSAS" (Once Saved Always Saved) you believe God saves you and that there is nothing you could ever do that could jeopardize your standing with Him. That once you accept God, you are then forced into a relationship that you can't break out of. You are trapped. Your free will is no longer. You can't leave. Once you check in, you can't check out. God has forced His love upon you because of your one choice to believe in Him for your salvation.

Such a notion sounds absolutely ridiculous. But this is what you must believe if your a proponent of "Eternal Security". I mean, have you ever watched one of those movies about a girl who had a crush on a guy, which quickly turned into a forceful or twisted relationship? You know, the movie where boy meets girl, but the boy loses interest, yet the girl doesn't and therefore she forces her love upon him. So things get pretty dark and twisted. This is exactly what proponents of "Eternal Security" have done with God. They have made God out to be this woman who had forced her love upon a man who didn't want her love anymore.

In fact, do you remember the story of David and Bathsheba? David wanted to keep the forbidden love of another man's wife. So he forced a relationship of what he believed to be love by killing her husband (Uriah) so he could be with her in the way that he wanted (or loved). Veritably, there is no doubt in my mind that David might have even loved Bathsheba. However, it was not a love that was his. So David tried to force love in a way that was not natural or good (by permanently eliminating the will of another) (2 Samuel 11:1-27). For that is exactly what "Eternal Security" does. It sets up a loving relationship as if it was something that had to be forced. That once you are saved, you are always saved (no matter what you do or even if you change your mind). Such a notion goes against all logic of what we know about free will and true love.

As for the OSAS claim on the sealing of the Spirit:

(Click on the following spoiler button to learn more):

What is the condition of having the seal of God?

Scripture says, God the Father has set his seal upon those who labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

In fact, what is a guarantee?

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Psalms 5:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus (Read Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 10).

Certain OSAS proponents believe repentance is not turning from sin but it simply a change of mind about sin (with no change in one's life). I can accept repentance as turning away from sin because that is a part of repentance. However, to be more specific, I see the Bible define repentance as asking God for forgiveness of one's sins (Which is then followed by the fruits of repentance, i.e. forsaking sin). If you are interested, you can check out my Biblical case for repentance below by clicking on the following spoiler button.

My Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness"

(Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.

Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance

(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

In addition to God's Word, prayer is one of our best weapons. I just recently seen the movie called "War Room." Very good movie with an amazing message. I would highly recommend renting this one through Amazon Prime if you have that in Canada. Granted, this movie is not on my "Most Rewatchable Christian Films List," but it is still a great movie. It inspired me to start writing in a prayer journal. Anyways, if you are interested in seeing my favorite Christian films, you can check that out here (if you like):

What Christian Movies Do You Find To Be The Most Rewatchable?

That is an amazing and admirable Christ like attitude to have, brother.
Glory be to the Lord for the love that you have for our brothers.
I remember, when I first started arguing against OSAS. I was debating with OSAS type #1 believers (i.e. They believe they can sin as much as they want and still be saved). On another forum (Theology Online), they called me some pretty nasty stuff there. But I knew Jesus wanted me to speak in love in return. So I did.

Yeah, one guy told me that Galatians 5:19-21 was talking about inheriting (the recruitment) of believers. They were so desperate to defend OSAS, that they said that the Kingdom of God was in reference to believers in this instance. Pretty crazy. But we must love them and pray for them (of course).

Indeed. I look forward to it, my brother.
May God's love shine upon you greatly this fine evening.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

Hey brother Jason,

You made me smile with that picture. lol. I used to like that character.

We agree on everything brother. Don't worry for me about Catholicism. I don't think I am going to argue with them here. I also never really argue anymore I just discuss and reason.

Love you brother we will talk more. You see like a very fun are reasonable man ))

God bless you in Jesus name. Keep strong dear brother.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 20, 2018

Asaph George said:
Hey brother Jason,

You made me smile with that picture. lol. I used to like that character.

We agree on everything brother. Don't worry for me about Catholicism. I don't think I am going to argue with them here. I also never really argue anymore I just discuss and reason.

Love you brother we will talk more. You see like a very fun are reasonable man ))

God bless you in Jesus name. Keep strong dear brother.

Thank you brother for the kind words.

May God bless you this fine day.

Phil 1:21 · Mar 20, 2018

MDC said:
Did you force yourself to be physically birthed? Or did you have a choice in the matter? Your emotional humanistic philosophical rant of why God does what He does in the salvation and damnation of sinners is why you believe what you do. You don’t believe God is Sovereign. How can you when you believe mans will is autonomous? Man is responsible for his own sin.. whether God has predestined him a reprobate or not. Romans 9 is perverted because the lofty and arrogant free willers cant believe they aren’t sovereign over their own desires and choices in life. Poor baby’s! And the doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ definitely DENIES the works of Christ in salvation. As being a modern day version of the Judaizers, they seek to establish their own righteousness. So a sinners works is the basis for justification according to these folk. Salvation is not synergistic or cooperative. Good works is the result or fruit of being saved, not the cause or basis for maintaining salvation. So yes, in essence you do agree with Catholicism on how one is justified

Judaizers...excellent analogy. Thanks for chiming in.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 20, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
Judaizers...excellent analogy. Thanks for chiming in.

Any Scripture verses to go with that, my friend?

Asaph George · Mar 20, 2018

Ron Gurley said:
Parable of the 10 virgins:
Matthew 25:
1 Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, (CHURCH) who took their lamps and went out to meet the "bridegroom".(CHRIST)....13 Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.(of His Second Coming)

Refers to the Second Coming of Christ. Jesus is the "Bridegroom". The virgins are the "CHURCH" and "Bride" of Christ. BE READY!

Hello Brother Ron,

Yes it is talking about the second coming. But Is this a summary you are giving? Why don't we go through this verse by verse?

This parable not only talks about being ready for the second coming, but there is a distinction between the 5 foolish virgins and the 5 wise ones. So my question is what is that distinction?

It is true that the 10 virgins represent the Church. Now the question is what is the difference between the 5 foolish and the 5 wise virgins?

Please tell me where you don't agree with my comments:

Matthew 25:1-13 (KJV)

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. (all ten virgins had lamps and all of them went forth to meet the bridegroom)

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: (why were the five foolish? because they took their lamps with them but did not take extra oil with them)

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. (why were the other five wise? because they took extra oil in their vessels with their lamps. This means the difference between the foolish and the wise is only the extra oil)

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. (the word “midnight” shows His coming will be unexpected by all 10 virgins because all of them were sleeping)

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. (notice the foolish said their lamps are gone out. What does that mean? it means their lamps had already been lit and had oil. The foolish virgins did not have extra oil)

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. (each virgin is responsible for paying the price of their oil)

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. (the bridegroom came when the five foolish virgins were out to buy oil because they were caught unprepared. The door is shut)

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. (Jesus disowns them and keeps them outside)

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Now another question to you dear brother is: What does the oil represent?

God bless you!

Asaph George · Mar 20, 2018

Ron Gurley said:
John 15 was given ONLY for believers/disciples/followers. Only they can be branches in the True Vine.
God the Father prunes them to produce more and better fruit to His glory. The unfruitful works are burned up.

Bearing fruit is the result of obeying God’s commandments.

John 15 (NIV) (my extracts...comments)...Jesus is the Vine, The Father is the Vinedresser, and the Branches are Their followers
..."I am the vine; you (believers) are the branches.
If a man (ABIDES) remains (dwells) in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit;
apart from me you can do nothing....(of spiritual value?)
This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing (proving) yourselves to be my disciples(followers)
As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain (ABIDE) in my love.
If you obey my commands (precepts/teachings), you will remain (ABIDE) in my love,
just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain (ABIDE) in his love.
I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
My command is this: Love "one another" (each other) as I have loved you...
This is my command: Love "one another" (each other)

Brother Ron,

We cannot ignore the parts or the words that we don't like, we have to look INTO the verses, not just jump over them.

Here is John 15:1-6

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in Me (true born again believers) that beareth not fruit he taketh away (true born again believers can be In Christ and still not produce fruit): and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth (sanctification of the Spirit) it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word (Why now clean? because they received His words, clean people are clearly saved) which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, (Abide is to stay remain, means they are already IN) and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing (If we abide in Christ, we will bring forth much fruit, without Christ, we cannot bear any fruit for the Kingdom).

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch (if we who are already clean and IN Christ, don’t remain in Him, we are cast forth from Him), and is withered (Why is the branch withered? Because it was cast forth from the vine and is no longer In the Spirit of life); and men gather them, and cast them into the fire (eternal destruction, that is loss of salvation), and they are burned.

Now please read these verses and the comments and please let me know how this is not talking about born again believers. IN CHRIST means BORN AGAIN, don't you think?

We cannot be IN CHRIST and not be born again.

God bless you, all with love dear friend!

Phil 1:21 · Mar 20, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Any Scripture verses to go with that, my friend?

Are you unfamiliar with the term "Judaizers?"

Asaph George said:
Now please read these verses and the comments and please let me know how this is not talking about born again believers. IN CHRIST means BORN AGAIN, don't you think?

The verses are the word of God. Your comments are not.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 20, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
Are you unfamiliar with the term "Judaizers?"

Well, the word is not in our English Bibles.
However, the word is taken from the Greek verb ἰουδαΐζω (ioudaïzō) which means “Judaize.” or "to live as do the Jews" in Galatians 2:14.

The problem with the the Jews is that they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42).

Here are some of the erroneous beliefs of the Scribes (who were Jews):

They seeked after a sign (Matthew 12:38-39).
They washed hands, pots, cups, and tables. (as a part of the doctrines of the commandments of men) (Matthew 15:2) (Mark 7:4-5, Mark 7:8).
They honored Jesus with their lips, but their heart was far from Him (Mark 7:6).
They did not help their own father or mother (Thereby making the word of God of none effect through their own tradition).
(Matthew 15:3-6) (NLT) (Mark 7:11‭-13).

Jesus did not say to that the problem with the Scribes and Pharisees was that they did not have the mindset like the church today who thought they can sin and still be saved on some level by having a mere belief alone on Him. Only one passage could be taken out of context to suggest this. It is the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). However, first, nowhere does this parable say that the Tax collector was living in a state of crying out to God for his sin his whole life. Second, the problem was that the Pharisee did not humble himself like the Tax Collector who cried out to God for the forgiveness of sin. So the Pharisee needed to repent (ask God for forgiveness of his sin) instead of thinking he was better than the Tax Collector. Therefore, the point of this parable here is that the Pharisee needed to accept Christ. The parable is not suggesting that believers can sin their whole lives and still be saved. The majority of the things Christ spoke against in regards to the Jews was their disobedience to God's Word in favor of their own man made traditions. Paul was saying the same thing. He said if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). Circumcision was a part of the Old Covenant (Old Testament) Law and not the New Covenant (New Testament) Law. The Old Covenant Law ended with Christ's sacrifice (Matthew 27:51) (Hebrews 9:16-17) (Hebrews 7:12). So Paul condemned the Pharisee's false way of thinking that said that we have to keep the Old Covenant Laws like circumcision as a part of salvation. This is why Paul says we are to serve in newness of Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6).

For...

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).

So we are to walk after the Spirit (in Christ Jesus) and not walk after the flesh so as not to be under the Condemnation.

This is why that....

After We are Saved by God's Grace,
God's Works (Done Through Us) Are Also Required As a Part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

You said:
The verses are the word of God. Your comments are not.

You actually have to prove that with the Word of God instead of just saying so, my friend.

Phil 1:21 · Mar 20, 2018

So that’s a yes on being unfamiliar with the term “Judaisers.”

Jason0047 said:
You actually have to prove that with the Word of God instead of just saying so, my friend.

It’s cute that you think I have to provide scripture to state that a poster’s opinions aren’t the word of God.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 20, 2018

Who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).

We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. But good works of the Lord must exist in a believer's life because it shows that the Lord is living within them (See 1 John 2:3-4).

Bible Highlighter · Mar 20, 2018

Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about man's works because it talks about man boasting.
Ephesians 2:10 is talking about God's works done in us because they are the kinds of works that we were created in Christ Jesus to do.

James 2 talks about God's works done through us and not man's works because faith without works (i.e. God's works) is dead (James 2:17) and we are justified by works and not by faith only (James 2:24).

Yes, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace without any kind works by our own effort. God saves us by His grace and mercy when we come to Him seeking for forgiveness by faith in His Word that Jesus died and was risen on our behalf. God continues to save us by doing the good work through our lives as we yield our life to His will according to His Word (obeying His commands in the New Testament).

Confusion arises on the Faith vs. Works issue is because folks do not understand the difference of when the Bible talks about works in relation to God's works (done through the believer) vs. Man's works.

Asaph George · Mar 20, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).

We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. But good works of the Lord must exist in a believer's life because it shows that the Lord is living within them (See 1 John 2:3-4).

Amazing post brother.

Precisely )

Bible Highlighter · Mar 20, 2018

Asaph George said:
Amazing post brother.

Precisely )

Thank you, brother.
Let all the glory and praise be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

God is so good.

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