All have sinned?

[MamaZ]

Perhaps this will help Chilehed. For those who do not know the Jerome Biblical Commentary (written post Vatican II), here is a excerpt from the Editor's Preface.

This work is a compact commentary on the whole Bible written by Roman Catholic scholars according to the principles of modern biblical criticism. The question of the Catholic interpretation of the Bible constantly reappears. It seemed to the editors that the best way to expose the misunderstanding implicit in this question was to produce a commentary written entirely by Catholics. This would allow readers of all persuasions to see a representative group of Catholic scholars at work—not the isolated and allegedly liberal mavericks, but some fifty contributors teaching in Catholic colleges and seminaries in the United States, Canada, and abroad.
​

Having gotten that out of the way, here is a VERY short excerpt from this commentary. It never argues against the RC doctrine of the sinless life of Mary (obviously), but certainly argues adequately against any others attaining to such a thing. Here, specifically "on topic", is Romans 3:23 from the Jerome Biblical Commentary.

23. all men have sinned: *Christian salvation, embracing all men, copes with the universality of sin among them. Paul is thinking primarily of the two historic groups of humanity, Jews and Greeks; yet his absolute formulation also connotes the idea of “all individuals."Brown, R. E., Fitzmyer, J. A., & Murphy, R. E. (1996, c1968). The Jerome Biblical commentary (2:301). Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall.
​

This commentary makes another important point here. It says that the Bible's use of the word "All" in v22 (which tells us that *ALL who believe will be saved), also sheds light on v23's "All". Basically it's saying that there is no distinction among those who are saved, because there is no distinction among those who are lost (Jews/Gentiles). Surely you cannot be proposing to take all from v22 and assign to it the meaning you have been attempting to give to all in v23!! The meaing of the text could then be said to be, "SOME who believe will be saved".

"ALL", in the case of Romans 3, means, “all individuals”!


You do realize that Protestants do not dispute the RCC doctrine of the sinlessness of Mary simply because you guys believe it, or because we somehow abhor Mary, or for some other inane reason. On the contrary, it's because the Scriptures tell us it's not true. If the Bible declared her sinlessness, I'll guarantee you we'd be the first ones jumping on board of that band wagon ..

Finally, I just want to say, "hey, who knows, anything's possible". After all, it took the Magisterium over one thousand, five hundred years to come to the conclusion that Mary led a sinless life (I wonder why it took'm so long .. ) . Maybe we just need to be much, much older ...

Yours and His,
David

Thank you for posting this..

 

[jckstraw72]

Perhaps this will help Chilehed. For those who do not know the Jerome Biblical Commentary (written post Vatican II), here is a excerpt from the Editor's Preface.

This work is a compact commentary on the whole Bible written by Roman Catholic scholars according to the principles of modern biblical criticism. The question of the Catholic interpretation of the Bible constantly reappears. It seemed to the editors that the best way to expose the misunderstanding implicit in this question was to produce a commentary written entirely by Catholics. This would allow readers of all persuasions to see a representative group of Catholic scholars at work—not the isolated and allegedly liberal mavericks, but some fifty contributors teaching in Catholic colleges and seminaries in the United States, Canada, and abroad.
​

Having gotten that out of the way, here is a VERY short excerpt from this commentary. It never argues against the RC doctrine of the sinless life of Mary (obviously), but certainly argues adequately against any others attaining to such a thing. Here, specifically "on topic", is Romans 3:23 from the Jerome Biblical Commentary.

23. all men have sinned: *Christian salvation, embracing all men, copes with the universality of sin among them. Paul is thinking primarily of the two historic groups of humanity, Jews and Greeks; yet his absolute formulation also connotes the idea of “all individuals."Brown, R. E., Fitzmyer, J. A., & Murphy, R. E. (1996, c1968). The Jerome Biblical commentary (2:301). Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall.
​

This commentary makes another important point here. It says that the Bible's use of the word "All" in v22 (which tells us that *ALL who believe will be saved), also sheds light on v23's "All". Basically it's saying that there is no distinction among those who are saved, because there is no distinction among those who are lost (Jews/Gentiles). Surely you cannot be proposing to take all from v22 and assign to it the meaning you have been attempting to give to all in v23!! The meaing of the text could then be said to be, "SOME who believe will be saved".

"ALL", in the case of Romans 3, means, “all individuals”!


You do realize that Protestants do not dispute the RCC doctrine of the sinlessness of Mary simply because you guys believe it, or because we somehow abhor Mary, or for some other inane reason. On the contrary, it's because the Scriptures tell us it's not true. If the Bible declared her sinlessness, I'll guarantee you we'd be the first ones jumping on board of that band wagon ..

Finally, I just want to say, "hey, who knows, anything's possible". After all, it took the Magisterium over one thousand, five hundred years to come to the conclusion that Mary led a sinless life (I wonder why it took'm so long .. ) . Maybe we just need to be much, much older ...

Yours and His,
David

the Church was teaching the sinlessness of Mary long before 1500 ...

 

[Christos Anesti]

Is there a differnce between saying "Person 'x' is sinless" and "Person 'x' has never in their entire life commited a sin" ? Sinlessness could be a state of being that a person could obtain despite having sinned in the past (through repentance and growth in the likeness of God, etc.).

 

[Tangible]

Is there a differnce between saying "Person 'x' is sinless" and "Person 'x' has never in their entire life commited a sin" ? Sinlessness could be a state of being that a person could obtain despite having sinned in the past (through repentance and growth in the likeness of God, etc.).

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[jckstraw72]

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

well but even if we reach a point where we no longer sin, we would still have to admit that we have sinned, and that we still miss the mark of Godliness. Attaining sinlessness doesnt negate this verse.

 

[chilehed]

Perhaps this will help Chilehed. For those who do not know the Jerome Biblical Commentary (written post Vatican II), here is an excerpt from the Editor's Preface...

Hold on... I thought that you held to sola scriptura. If so, then you can't refer to the Jerome Commentary and remain theologically consistant.

The bible alone, please.

 

[Tangible]

well but even if we reach a point where we no longer sin, we would still have to admit that we have sinned, and that we still miss the mark of Godliness. Attaining sinlessness doesnt negate this verse.

That comes two verses later.

1 John 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 1:8 means that in this life we can never reach a point where we no longer sin. Sin is not just actions, its our state, our condition.

 

[Tangible]

Hold on... I thought that you held to sola scriptura. If so, then you can't refer to the Jerome Commentary and remain theologically consistant.

The bible alone, please.

Classic.

 

[MamaZ]

Classic.

 

[Frogster]

Hold on... I thought that you held to sola scriptura. If so, then you can't refer to the Jerome Commentary and remain theologically consistant.

The bible alone, please.

Was mary unclean according to Jewish law, after she gave birth?

Leviticus 12:1 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, ‘If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hold on... I thought that you held to sola scriptura. If so, then you can't refer to the Jerome Commentary and remain theologically consistant.

The bible alone, please.

Dude, you TOTALLY crack me up ...

 

[chilehed]

Dude, you TOTALLY crack me up ...

Really? You don't think that someone who insists that the bible alone is the rule of faith should be asked to support his position from the bible alone, rather than using a commentary that even the authors admit might be erroneous?

 

[addo]

"For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin." (Romans 3:9) -- Thus Paul isn't speaking only "to those who are evil, boastful, foolish, greedy, violent, and wicked" but really to all, as he says in Romans 3:9.

"For in Your sight no one living is righteous." (Psalms 143:2)

"(for there is no one who does not sin)" (1 Kings 8:46)

Case closed.*

*for me, at least

 

[MamaZ]

Really? You don't think that someone who insists that the bible alone is the rule of faith should be asked to support his position from the bible alone, rather than using a commentary that even the authors admit might be erroneous?

Tried that already by using scripture.. You said it was not related.. So you either have it using the full context of scripture teach you or you don't. That is why scripture pared with scripture is the sola scriptura way..

 

[jckstraw72]

"For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin." (Romans 3:9) -- Thus Paul isn't speaking only "to those who are evil, boastful, foolish, greedy, violent, and wicked" but really to all, as he says in Romans 3:9.

"For in Your sight no one living is righteous." (Psalms 143:2)

"(for there is no one who does not sin)" (1 Kings 8:46)

Case closed.*

*for me, at least

theres still the matter of looking at what the Hebrew and Greek literally say. All these verses could just as easily mean that all have the condition of a sinful nature, without necessitating that every single person capitulated to that sinful nature.

 

[Frogster]

Really? You don't think that someone who insists that the bible alone is the rule of faith should be asked to support his position from the bible alone, rather than using a commentary that even the authors admit might be erroneous?

Maybe you did not see my post.

Was mary unclean according to Jewish law, after she gave birth?

Leviticus 12:1 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, ‘If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean.

 

[addo]

theres still the matter of looking at what the Hebrew and Greek literally say. All these verses could just as easily mean that all have the condition of a sinful nature, without necessitating that every single person capitulated to that sinful nature.

"(for there is no one who does not sin)" (1 Kings 8:46)

Quite clear to me.

 

[jckstraw72]

"(for there is no one who does not sin)" (1 Kings 8:46)

Quite clear to me.

ok, but youre quoting English, im saying we should look into the Hebrew and Greek Septuagint.

 

[Tangible]

Maybe you did not see my post.

Was mary unclean according to Jewish law, after she gave birth?

Leviticus 12:1 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, ‘If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean.

Hmm. Yeah, what about that?

Luke 2:22 And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord

 

[narnia59]

Originally Posted by Frogster

Maybe you did not see my post.

Was mary unclean according to Jewish law, after she gave birth?

Leviticus 12:1 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, ‘If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean.
​

Hmm. Yeah, what about that?

Luke 2:22 And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord

What about it? Unless one is trying to make the case that giving birth to Christ was a sin?