All have sinned?

[MamaZ]

If mary was not born into the sinful Adamic creation, what was she born into?

last i checked, there are 2 adams.
Please name the creation.

No endless theological mumbo jumbo, name the creation.

 

[chilehed]

Mary sinned or she would not need a savior.

Where do you find that in the bible?

IF Mary never sinned what would she need to be saved from?

So then you admit that it's not in the bible, that it's actually a conclusion at which you've arrived by your own reasoning.

This is off topic. If you want to talk about something other than the topic of the thread, then start another thread. This thread is about that fact that Romans 3:23 does not prove that Mary sinned.

 

[chilehed]

If mary was not born into the sinful Adamic creation, what was she born in?

last i checked, there are 2 adams.
Please name the creation.

No endless theological mumbo jumbo, name the creation.

This is off topic. If you want to talk about something other than the topic of the thread, then start another thread. This thread is about that fact that Romans 3:23 does not prove that Mary sinned.

 

[chilehed]

And where does Scripture say that all miracles are recorded in Scripture? Or that Scripture is all one needs to have in order to know everything one needs to know? It does not. It says the opposite.

We do discover in Scripture that taking up residence and dwellling in a vessel of sin is contrary to the nature of God. We also discover that Jesus fulfilled every command of His father perfectly.

This is off topic. If you want to talk about something other than the topic of the thread, then start another thread. This thread is about that fact that Romans 3:23 does not prove that Mary sinned.

 

[chilehed]

So in order for one to fall into sin takes what>?

This is off topic. If you want to talk about something other than the topic of the thread, then start another thread. This thread is about that fact that Romans 3:23 does not prove that Mary sinned.

 

[Tangible]

This is off topic.

Translation = "This proves me wrong and blows my sad little theories to kingdom come."

 

[Vendetta]

Translation = "This proves me wrong and blows my sad little theories to kingdom come."

Well since one of people to which he made that remark turns out to be Catholic and supporting him, I guess ALL of the examples you're using (Narnia, Mamaz, Frogster) turns out not to be ALL. And this, my friends, is what we call irony.

 

[Frogster]

This is off topic. If you want to talk about something other than the topic of the thread, then start another thread. This thread is about that fact that Romans 3:23 does not prove that Mary sinned.

Here is another, besides rom 5.

9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,

 

[Frogster]

This is off topic. If you want to talk about something other than the topic of the thread, then start another thread. This thread is about that fact that Romans 3:23 does not prove that Mary sinned.

It is on topic. Debates often go to other texts to prove something.
What creation was mary born into, if not the Adamic?

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

 

[MamaZ]

So then you admit that it's not in the bible, that it's actually a conclusion at which you've arrived by your own reasoning.

This is off topic. If you want to talk about something other than the topic of the thread, then start another thread. This thread is about that fact that Romans 3:23 does not prove that Mary sinned.

Sure it does.. All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. For through Adam sin and death came. Mary was born according to the Adam lintage

 

[chilehed]

Sure it does.. All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. For through Adam sin and death came. Mary was born according to the Adam lintage

It would help if you bothered to study and think about the OP, rather than just parrot something that I've already shown doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

[Tangible]

It would help if you would actually address the numerous scriptural texts that disprove your position instead of declaring everything you don't want to talk about off topic.

 

[chilehed]

It would help if you would actually address the numerous scriptural texts that disprove your position instead of declaring everything you don't want to talk about off topic.

You didn't provide any. All you did was provide a list of irrelevant passages, with no explanation of why you thought that they are relevant.

One of the passages you cited was the one under discussion, but you didn't actually discuss the passage or deal in any substantive way with the OP.

It appears that your strategy is to bury yourself with a mass of bible verses without making a critical evaluation of any one of them. The problem with that strategy is that if none of them individually supports your position, then all of them taken together do not support it either.

I'm just trying to look at one passage at a time, and the one I'm looking at in this thread is Romans 3:23. Deal with it, or go away.

Remember, the purpose of this thread is NOT to prove that Mary was sinless. The purpose is to show that Romans 3:23 doesn't prove that she wasn't.

 

[Frogster]

It would help if you would actually address the numerous scriptural texts that disprove your position instead of declaring everything you don't want to talk about off topic.

 

[Frogster]

You didn't provide any. All you did was provide a list of irrelevant passages, with no explanation of why you thought that they are relevant.

One of the passages you cited was the one under discussion, but you didn't actually discuss the passage or deal in any substantive way with the OP.

It appears that your strategy is to bury yourself with a mass of bible verses without making a critical evaluation of any one of them. The problem with that strategy is that if none of them individually supports your position, then all of them taken together do not support it either.

I'm just trying to look at one passage at a time, and the one I'm looking at in this thread is Romans 3:23. Deal with it, or go away.

Remember, the purpose of this thread is NOT to prove that Mary was sinless. The purpose is to show that Romans 3:23 doesn't prove that she wasn't.

What creation was Mary born into?

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

 

[jckstraw72]

it would help to look at it in Greek -- does it literally say all have sinned, or does it perhaps say that all have the condition of sin?

 

[Frogster]

it would help to look at it in Greek -- does it literally say all have sinned, or does it perhaps say that all have the condition of sin?

Well, she was "in Adam", (Hebrews 7) so she sinned by way of nature, federally, or whatever, there are no exemptions listed in 5.

 

[jckstraw72]

Well, she was "in Adam", (Hebrews 7) so she sinned by way of nature, federally, or whatever, there are no exemptions listed in 5.

well im just saying, depending on how its translated, it could leave room for her to have never committed a sin, but yet to have been stained with the fallen, sin nature. i dont know what the verse literally says in Greek, just throwing the possibility out there.

 

[Frogster]

well im just saying, depending on how its translated, it could leave room for her to have never committed a sin, but yet to have been stained with the fallen, sin nature. i dont know what the verse literally says in Greek, just throwing the possibility out there.

I understand what you mean.

 

[St_Worm2]

Perhaps this will help Chilehed. For those who do not know the Jerome Biblical Commentary (written post Vatican II), here is an excerpt from the Editor's Preface.

This work is a compact commentary on the whole Bible written by Roman Catholic scholars according to the principles of modern biblical criticism. The question of the Catholic interpretation of the Bible constantly reappears. It seemed to the editors that the best way to expose the misunderstanding implicit in this question was to produce a commentary written entirely by Catholics. This would allow readers of all persuasions to see a representative group of Catholic scholars at work—not the isolated and allegedly liberal mavericks, but some fifty contributors teaching in Catholic colleges and seminaries in the United States, Canada, and abroad.
​

Having gotten that out of the way, here is a VERY short excerpt from this commentary. It never argues against the RC doctrine of the sinless life of Mary (obviously), but certainly argues adequately against any others attaining to such a thing. Here, specifically "on topic", is Romans 3:23 from the Jerome Biblical Commentary.

23. all men have sinned: *Christian salvation, embracing all men, copes with the universality of sin among them. Paul is thinking primarily of the two historic groups of humanity, Jews and Greeks; yet his absolute formulation also connotes the idea of “all individuals."Brown, R. E., Fitzmyer, J. A., & Murphy, R. E. (1996, c1968). The Jerome Biblical commentary (2:301). Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall.
​

This commentary makes another important point here. It says that the Bible's use of the word "All" in v22 (which tells us that *ALL who believe will be saved), also sheds light on v23's "All". Basically it's saying that there is no distinction among those who are saved, because there is no distinction among those who are lost (Jews/Gentiles). Surely you cannot be proposing to take all from v22 and assign to it the meaning you have been attempting to give to all in v23!! The meaing of the text could then be said to be, "SOME who believe will be saved".

"ALL", in the case of Romans 3, means, “all individuals”!


You do realize that Protestants do not dispute the RCC doctrine of the sinlessness of Mary simply because you guys believe it, or because we somehow abhor Mary, or for some other inane reason. On the contrary, it's because the Scriptures tell us it's not true. If the Bible declared her sinlessness, I'll guarantee you we'd be the first ones jumping onboard that band wagon ..

Finally, I just want to say, "hey, who knows, anything's possible". After all, it took the Magisterium over one thousand, five hundred years to come to the conclusion that Mary led a sinless life (I wonder why it took'm so long .. ) . Maybe we just need to be much, much older ..

Yours and His,
David