All have sinned?

[MamaZ]

If you got that out of that, you didn't read it very well.

The point is that because Scripture says "all" have sinned that does not prove any specific individual sinned. That is not the sense in which Scripture uses terms such as all, every, none, each, etc. There are often exceptions to the rule even noted in Scripture. Some would say that makes Scripture contradict itself. Nope, it means one needs to understand what Scripture means when it says "all".

Paul is quoting Psalm 14 in that passage from Romans, which is a reference not to people in general but to 'fools'. He is tired of the foolishness that is pitting the Gentiles and Jews against each other. He's basically saying that there is no difference between the Gentiles and Jews, both groups are sinners and need salvation.

So all in some eyes do not mean all in others eyes. Each individual has sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God or there would be no need for a savior would there be?

 

[narnia59]

So all in some eyes do not mean all in others eyes. Each individual has sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God or there would be no need for a savior would there be?

I think Catholics are quite clear that Mary's salvation came through Christ her Savior. People seem to not be able to understand that one does not have to fall into sin to be saved from sin. Being saved from falling into sin in the first place is still being saved from sin, is it not?

Is it your view that everytime Scripture says "all" or "each" or "none" or "every" it's making a statement that applies to every individual who ever lived? Or is it just in this particular case that rule applies?

 

[chilehed]

Interesting! So you are saying that there are those who are completely righteous, those who do not need a Savior and are not, therefore, part of the "ALL" in Romans 3:23?

Yours and His,
David

What I'm saying is very well said in the OP, and it's not what you just said. Go back and study the OP.

 

[chilehed]

So then Abraham didn't sin? nor Enoch nor Job nor Moses?

What makes you ask that? I honestly don't understand how someone who read the OP could ask such a question, because I neither said nor implied anything of the sort.

 

[St_Worm2]

What I'm saying is very well said in the OP, and it's not what you just said. Go back and study the OP.

I re-read your OP Chilehed and I'm afraid to say that I'm drawing the same conclusions that I did to begin with. Perhaps I'm simply not understanding what you are trying to get at, so please be patient.

You said the Psalms Paul quoted in Romans 3 contrasted "evildoers" with the "righteous" and pointed out that this proves there are some who are, indeed, righteous (correct so far?). But this, of course, begs the next question, are these certain or special people ALWAYS righteous in everything they do (past, present and future), or do you mean they are still sinners, but just not as bad of sinners as the other folks mentioned in the Psalms ..

Thanks for your help!

Yours and His,
David

 

[chilehed]

I re-read your OP Chilehed and I'm afraid to say that I'm drawing the same conclusions that I did to begin with. Perhaps I'm simply not understanding what you are trying to get at, so please be patient.

OK.

You said the Psalms Paul quoted in Romans 3 contrasted "evildoers" with the "righteous" and pointed out that this proves there are some who are, indeed, righteous (correct so far?).

Yes. I presume that you've read the passages, as well as the one in Isaiah.

[But this, of course, begs the next question, are these certain or special people ALWAYS righteous in everything they do (past, present and future), or do you mean they are still sinners, but just not as bad of sinners as the other folks mentioned in the Psalms ..

I'm merely pointing out that the fact that you can't jump to the conclusion that everyone without exception has sinned merely because Sacred Scripture says that all fools and evildoers have.

 

[St_Worm2]

You know, another thing occurs to me as I think about how Mary was saved from her sins and from having a sin "nature", if it's true, why did God choose to do that for her alone? I mean, if it works for one created being, why not for all of us ..

This would also allow us to put the MESS that our progenitors created for us ... by eating that apple ... behind us once and for all. For that matter, why would God, who calls us all to be holy, righteous and sinless before Him, make that impossible for everyone, but one? I understand that she was the vessel that would give birth to Jesus, but what gain could there be for Him (or for us) to leave us in this sinful condition if He didn't have to?

Does this make sense to anyone or am I really off base here ..

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[Tangible]

The angels in heaven are without sin, and they are not God. Sinlessness is not an attribute reserved for God. I find no Scripture that says only Jesus is without sin.

Mary is not an angel either.

 

[Tangible]

You know, another thing occurs to me as I think about how Mary was saved from her sins and from having a sin "nature", if it's true, why did God choose to do that for her alone? I mean, if it works for one created being, why not for all of us ..

This would also allow us to put this MESS that out progenitors created for us ... by eating that apple ... behind us once and for all. For that matter, why would God, who calls us all to be holy, righteous and sinless before Him, make that impossible for everyone, but one? I understand that she was the vessel that would give birth to Jesus, but what gain could there be for Him (or for us) to leave us in this sinful condition if He didn't have to?

Does this make sense to anyone or am I really off base here ..

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

You're exactly right. It would mean a way to salvation apart from Christ.

 

[St_Worm2]

I'm merely pointing out that the fact that you can't jump to the conclusion that everyone without exception has sinned merely because Sacred Scripture says that all fools and evildoers have.

OK, but in the case of what "ALL" means in Romans 3:23, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, isn't it? We are a diverse race, red, white, yellow, black ... black and blue for us hockey players ... big, small, skinny, fat. There are a myriad of ways to tell us apart, yes? Shoot, we can even tell each other apart by our fingerprints since not one set is the same as another. But if there one thing that we all have in common, one way that we are all the same, it's sin. We were all born in it and, sadly, we all perform it .. too regularly.

Unless we can name someone who we know has not sinned .. EVER, any discussion about the word "All" in Romans 3:23 meaning anything less than EVERYONE is rendered moot by our own experience. Sin is universal, the ALL means everyone, everywhere, since the Fall.

Of course, we haven't discussed the effects of the Fall. Perhaps that should done at a later time however!

Yours and His,
David

 

[St_Worm2]

One final thought about all this, if Mary was conceived w/o a sinful nature and was able to live a life without sinning as a result, what happened to Eve? She was a perfect, sinless being too, right, with no proclivity toward sin ... just like Mary ... but look what happened. Yikes!!

What's up with that?? Was Mary 'made' differently than the rest of us? And if that's true, why didn't God make us more like Mary than Eve??

Yours and His,
David

 

[chilehed]

Unless we can name someone who we know has not sinned .. EVER, any discussion about the word "All" in Romans 3:23 meaning anything less than EVERYONE is rendered moot by our own experience.

As I pointed out in the OP, there are tens of millions of people in the world who cannot sin, and I'm sure you know some of them. I know that I do. It really does seem as if you haven't actually absorbed what I've written, so I'm not sure that I see any point in continuing our conversation.

Sin is universal, the ALL means everyone, everywhere, since the Fall.

There's no scripture that says "the word all in Romans 3:23 is intended to indicate every person in all times without exception". That's something that you've made up out of thin air; it's not supported by scripture and it violates actual experience.

 

[chilehed]

One final thought about all this, if Mary was conceived w/o a sinful nature and was able to live a life without sinning as a result, what happened to Eve?...

What happened to Eve was that she chose to sin. She didn't have to do that.

But that's off-topic. The topic is Romans 3:23.

 

[MamaZ]

So all does not mean all? It is just a suggestion that some are but others are not?

 

[chilehed]

So all does not mean all? It is just a suggestion that some are but others are not?

The word all doesn't necessarily mean every instance without exception.

 

[narnia59]

You know, another thing occurs to me as I think about how Mary was saved from her sins and from having a sin "nature", if it's true, why did God choose to do that for her alone? I mean, if it works for one created being, why not for all of us ..

This would also allow us to put the MESS that our progenitors created for us ... by eating that apple ... behind us once and for all. For that matter, why would God, who calls us all to be holy, righteous and sinless before Him, make that impossible for everyone, but one? I understand that she was the vessel that would give birth to Jesus, but what gain could there be for Him (or for us) to leave us in this sinful condition if He didn't have to?

Does this make sense to anyone or am I really off base here ..

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

It makes sense and that is a very reasonable question.

My thoughts are that people often assume that because God chose to save us the way He did -- through the sacrifice of Christ -- that this is the only option God had. I don't think there's any evidence that was His only option, and would seem to me to limit God. It was simply His option of choice.

So could God have created everyone without original sin after Adam and Eve? I think the answer to that is of course. To think otherwise would deny the sovereignty of God.

Why didn't He? I'm sure that will always be mystery to some degree. One of my thoughts is that He desire for humanity as created is for us all to be inter-related, each of us a piece of the puzzle designed to work in harmony (as the body of Christ is the repairing of this). We were designed to be 'one' in God. Therefore, when one of us sins, we are all impacted and infected. Through Christ, we all find healing and repairing.

The reason to leave us in this mess is to bring forth an even greater good. Having been in this 'mess', our ultimate holiness will be that which has been seasoned and tested by fire.

 

[narnia59]

Mary is not an angel either.

I never said she was. You, however said that God is the only one who is sinless. The normal implication in this discussion is that because God is the only one who is sinless then to believe Mary is sinless is to equate her with God.

I merely pointed out that God is not the only one who is sinless. Sinlessness does not equate to divinity.

 

[narnia59]

So all does not mean all? It is just a suggestion that some are but others are not?

Mamaz, please point out any of the following Scriptures where 'all' means every single individual:

Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 21:26
But if we say, 'From men'--we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet."

Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: " 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

Mark 1:5
The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Acts 4:21
So when they had further threatened them , they let them go , finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done

Acts 19:27
So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised , and her magnificence should be destroyed , whom all Asia and the world worshippeth .

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Hebrews 12:9
Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!


Bonus questions: Does Romans 5:19 contradict Romans 3:23?

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Tangible]

As I pointed out in the OP, there are tens of millions of people in the world who cannot sin, and I'm sure you know some of them. I know that I do.

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

What you have stated here is, frankly, blasphemous - and that's not a word I toss around lightly.

The only people in existence who cannot sin, other than Our Lord Jesus Christ the God-man, are those who have died and are awaiting resurrection.

The only possible reasons I can think of for you to make such a statement is that 1) you have a false idea of what sin is, 2) you do not understand man's utterly sinful condition, 3) you believe that a person can be alive in the flesh and not be sinful, or 4) you believe that a person can achieve a state in this life wherein they no longer actively sin.

Perhaps a review of Matthew 5 would be in order.

 

[chilehed]

...The only people in existence who cannot sin, other than Our Lord Jesus Christ the God-man, are those who have died and are awaiting resurrection.....

There is no scripture that says that - NONE. You've made it up.

A firend of mine is 3 months pregant - her unborn child cannot commit a sin. Across the street lives a 14 year-old girl who is severely autistic - she cannot commit a sin. Neither of them have the mental capacity necessary to turn away from God... they CANNOT commit a sin.

What it comes down to is that you are insisting that the word "all" in Romands 3:23 means "every person without exception". If that's what you actually believe, then you must also believe that absolutely no one at any time does anything but evil, including you.