All have sinned?

[narnia59]

Please.

There are plenty of verse that show Jesus was sinless. Lets face it, I proved a point.

What point? That having a baby is now a personal sin? Or that anyone who is found as "unclean" under the Levitical law is a sinner (which would include Christ)?

If the best "point" you can make is that childbirth constitutes personal sin, you're argument is in deep trouble.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Maybe you did not see my post.

Was mary unclean according to Jewish law, after she gave birth?

Leviticus 12:1 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, ‘If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean.

Ritual uncleanliness is not the same as sin. For example, it makes someone unclean to touch a dead body, yet burying the dead is one of the corporal acts of mercy. However, it would be unfitting for someone to become impure by giving birth to very God who is wholly pure, ergo, Mary did not become unclean because of giving birth to Jesus (which is why she gave birth without pain or blood, retaining her hymen, and never menstruated). However, she still complied with the Mosaic Law and made the offering in the Temple because to not do so would have been a sin.

 

[Tangible]

(which is why she gave birth without pain or blood, retaining her hymen, and never menstruated)

Ew.

All this AKA "The tail wagging the dog." There isn't even a hint of these assertions in scripture.

(Poor Mary. I don't think she would feel very blessed having her personal bodily functions openly debated.)

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Or that anyone who is found as "unclean" under the Levitical law is a sinner (which would include Christ)?

He was touched by the woman who had a perpetual menstruation (menorrhagia), touched lepers, touched dead people, ate with Samaritans, Gentiles and those in public sin. Certainly, if you take a strict application of the Mosaic Law, Christ was ritually unclean during a significant portion of His public ministry. If ritual uncleanliness constitutes sin*, we have a serious problem.


~~~
* Certain sectaries see "sin" as a state of uncleanliness rather than particular acts. They would also assert that every act of a man in a state of sin constitutes sin. Sometimes they refer to a "sin nature".

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

(Poor Mary. I don't think she would feel very blessed having her personal bodily functions openly debated.)

I didn't bring it up. But if menstruation is literally "the curse" -- part of the curse of "pain in childbearing" (Gen 3:16) -- as an effect of Original Sin, and the Blessed Virgin was without stain of Original Sin, logically she neither menstruated nor had pain during the birth of Christ.

If Mary was conceived in a state of Original Sin, she could not be the New Eve. If she is not the New Eve, she could not be the Mother of the Church, the spiritual "mother of all the living". Yet, Scripture asserts that she is indeed the Mother of the Church (Jn 19:26-27; Apoc 12:17). So therefore, she is the New Eve, was conceived without Original Sin and therefore suffered no menstruation nor pains of childbirth.

 

[Tangible]

Yet, Scripture asserts that she is indeed the Mother of the Church.

Citation, please.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Citation, please.

Added.

 

[Tangible]

Yet, Scripture asserts that she is indeed the Mother of the Church (Jn 19:26-27; Apoc 12:17). So therefore, she is the New Eve, was conceived without Original Sin and therefore suffered no menstruation nor pains of childbirth.

Jn 19: 26 When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

Narrative passage. John is not equal to the whole church. Context doesn't support your claim.

Rev 12: 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Apocalyptic passage. The woman is Isreal/The Church, not Mary. Context doesn't support your claim.

More?

And that's a pretty huge leap under that "therefore".

 

[St_Worm2]

If Mary was conceived in a state of Original Sin, she could not be the New Eve. If she is not the New Eve, she could not be the Mother of the Church, the spiritual "mother of all the living". Yet, Scripture asserts that she is indeed the Mother of the Church (Jn 19:26-27; Apoc 12:17). So therefore, she is the New Eve, was conceived without Original Sin and therefore suffered no menstruation nor pains of childbirth.

Hi PTC, first off, what's "Apoc 12:17" stand for?

Secondly, John 19:26-27, you believe these two verses teach us that Mary is the Mother of the Church? I see Jesus fulfilling His earthly duty to Mary (His earthly mother) in getting John to take care of her from that point on, but nothing more. These two verses are the only Scriptural backing the RCC has for the doctrine of Mary as Mother of the Church ..

One last question, why does the RCC believe Jesus addresses Mary as "woman" instead of "mother" here ..

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[St_Worm2]

I didn't bring it up. But if menstruation is literally "the curse" -- part of the curse of "pain in childbearing" (Gen 3:16) -- as an effect of Original Sin, and the Blessed Virgin was without stain of Original Sin, logically she neither menstruated nor had pain during the birth of Christ.

We, of course, have no Scriptural evidence about the physical part of the birth itself, but I noticed on Tangible's post that by Apoc 12:17 you may have meant Revelation 12:17.

So the RCC sees the "woman" in Revelation 12 as "Mary"? But in Rev 12:2 we read of her: "She was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth". Maybe she wasn't completely free from Original Sin after all ..

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Hi PTC, first off, what's "Apoc 12:17" stand for?

The Apocalypse of St. John, sometimes called "Revelation" (the English translation of the Greek word "Apocalypse"):

And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The woman, Mary, gave birth physically to Christ and gives birth spiritually to those who follow Christ, the Church.

Mary is the Mother of Christ. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, ergo, Mary is mystically (spiritually) the Mother of the Church. Adam and Eve are the physical parents of the human race. Jesus and Mary are the spiritual parents of the human race. Mary's role in the redemption of mankind was part of putting everything back together -- Eve obeyed the fallen angel, but Mary obeyed the good angel; Eve took the fruit off the tree, Mary put the Fruit on the Tree. In order to be the New Eve, it necessitates that she was born in that same state of purity that Eve was.

Secondly, John 19:26-27, you believe these two verses teach us that Mary is the Mother of the Church? I see Jesus fulfilling His earthly duty to Mary (His earthly mother) in getting John to take care of her from that point on, but nothing more.

You really think that there are parts of the Gospel that are meaningless, especially something as dramatic as Christ's words on the Cross?

One last question, why does the RCC believe Jesus referred to Mary as "woman" instead of "mother" here ..

Both at the Wedding of Cana and at Calvary, Christ calls Mary "woman". This is the counterpart to calling Himself "the Son of Man". Christ is the New Adam, Mary is the New Eve. Using this representative title for Mary -- "woman" instead of "mother" -- affirms her in the role of the New Eve.

Then the Lord God cast a deep sleep upon Adam: and when he was fast asleep, he took one of his ribs, and filled up flesh for it. And the Lord God built the rib which he took from Adam into a woman: and brought her to Adam. And Adam said: This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; -she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh. And they were both naked: to wit, Adam and his wife: and were not ashamed.

---

He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to your word.' [Lk 1:38] And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.

That the Lord then was manifestly coming to His own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation which is supported by Himself, and was making a recapitulation of that disobedience which had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience which was [exhibited by Himself when He hung] upon a tree, [the effects] also of that deception being done away with, by which that virgin Eve, who was already espoused to a man, was unhappily misled -- was happily announced, through means of the truth [spoken] by the angel to the Virgin Mary, who was [also espoused] to a man. For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. And if the former did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness (advocata) of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way the sin of the first created man (protoplasti) receives amendment by the correction of the First-begotten, and the coming of the serpent is conquered by the harmlessness of the dove, those bonds being unloosed by which we had been fast bound to death.

 

[Frogster]

What point? That having a baby is now a personal sin? Or that anyone who is found as "unclean" under the Levitical law is a sinner (which would include Christ)?

If the best "point" you can make is that childbirth constitutes personal sin, you're argument is in deep trouble.

Now..you know what I meant. If she was declared unclean under Lev law, then she was a sinner under law, because all sinned under law. You can't declare just "some of the law" over her. She lived under the full Mosaic law.

 

[Frogster]

Ritual uncleanliness is not the same as sin. For example, it makes someone unclean to touch a dead body, yet burying the dead is one of the corporal acts of mercy. However, it would be unfitting for someone to become impure by giving birth to very God who is wholly pure, ergo, Mary did not become unclean because of giving birth to Jesus (which is why she gave birth without pain or blood, retaining her hymen, and never menstruated). However, she still complied with the Mosaic Law and made the offering in the Temple because to not do so would have been a sin.

I did not say that was a sin. But the point is, if she was declared unclean by the law, then that same system declared her a sinner, because only jesus kept the law perfectly.

Leviticus 12:1 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, ‘If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean.

She was either under law, or not. It says if she :bears a child".

 

[Frogster]

Let's let Mary speak for herself shall we?

What was that first line, Mary?

“My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior"

Why would you need a Savior if you were without sin as some would suggest?

"Good question."

What exactly has God done for you - did you say something about showing you mercy?

"for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. And his mercy is for those who fear him"

So God showed you mercy and you need a Savior. It doesn't sound like you were sinless during your life on earth to me.

"Good point."

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I did not say that was a sin. But the point is, if she was declared unclean by the law, then that same system declared her a sinner, because only jesus kept the law perfectly.

Was Jesus ritually unclean? Was He therefore a sinner?

 

[Frogster]

Mary was under law.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

 

[Frogster]

Was Jesus ritually unclean? Was He therefore a sinner?

I addressed that, did u read my post? No, but the point is, she was under the law. You can't just pick some law, she lived under the full Mosaic law, and under that law, all were delacred sinners. Only Jesus was exempt.

So if she was unclean, declared by law, then she was a sinner, delcared by law.

 

[Frogster]

That's a conclusion that you've drawn from the text, which isn't demanded by the text. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to claim that your opinion is inspired by God. And in any case, your response has nothing to do with the topic.

I guess you don't want to address the actual topic of the thread? That must mean that you agree that Romans 3:23 does not prove that Mary sinned.

Ok friend. What would you like to talk about with 23? Why didn't Paul exempt her from 3:23?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I addressed that, did u read my post? No, but the point is, she was under the law. You can't just pick some law, she lived under the full Mosaic law, and under that law, all were delacred sinners. Only Jesus was exempt.

So if she was unclean, declared by law, then she was a sinner, delcared by law.

So Jesus was not unclean because "the prince is above the law" (princeps legibus solutus est)?

You also have failed to show how ritual uncleanliness is the same as sin. Animals can be ritually unclean, does that mean animals are sinners? Indeed, even inanimate objects can be ritually unclean, does that mean these objects are sinners? Women are ritually unclean for menstruating, is menstruation a sin? Being a leper makes someone unclean, is it a sin to contract a disease? Touching a dead person makes someone ritually unclean, is burying people a sin?

And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying: This is the observance of the victim, which the Lord hath ordained. Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee a red cow of full age, in which there is no blemish, and which hath not carried the yoke: And you shall deliver her to Eleazar the priest, who shall bring her forth without the camp, and shall immolate her in the sight of all: And dipping his finger in her blood, shall sprinkle it over against the door of the tabernacle seven times, and shall burn her in the sight of all, delivering up to the fire her skin, and her flesh, and her blood, and her dung.

The priest shall also take cedar wood, and hyssop, and scarlet twice dyed, and cast it into the flame, with which the cow is consumed. And then after washing his garments, and body, he shall enter into the camp, and shall be unclean until the evening. He also that hath burned her, shall wash his garments, and his body, and shall be unclean until the evening.The children of Israel, and the strangers that dwell among them, shall observe this for a holy thing by a perpetual ordinance.

So you believe that ritual uncleanliness is sin. Here we have a "holy thing", a sacrifice which is a "perpetual ordinance", that causes the priests who participate in the sacrifice to be unclean. So to you, God commands people to sin against Him as a way of worshiping Him.

Clearly, you have a different definition of "sin" than I do.

Here is a Jewish perspective on "ritual impurity" and its relationship to sin.



I also, for the record, do not grant that the Mother of God was ritually unclean because she gave birth to Christ -- Christ cleanses the world, He does not defile it. The woman who was bleeding touched the hem of His garment and was made clean, He touched the lepers and they were made clean, yet you think that Christ defiled His Holy Mother?

 

[MamaZ]

The woman, Mary, gave birth physically to Christ and gives birth spiritually to those who follow Christ, the Church.

Only one who births us Spiritually and it is God Himself. For He is Spirit and those who worship must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.