After Supreme Court Victory, Colorado Baker Back in Court for Declining Gender Transition Cake

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

the OP for starters.

Are you sure it isn't just you? Like in every thread you try to contribute toon these subjects?

Why you object to him to refusing to make wedding cakes for black people because of his firmly held religious beliefs?

I don't care if a Black Hebrew Israelite doesn't want to serve a Cracker or a Jew. But Jack Phillips clearly doesn't refuse anyone on the basis of their skin colour. So why is it particularly relevant?

it's false to suggest that they do.

They obviously do though I don't expect to convince you. So I'll agree with you for the sake of the argument. If Twitter is allowed to ban whoever they want, why do you have a problem with a single baker?

it's the same problem i have with anyone engaging in discrimination.

Discrimination like what exactly? As far as I can tell people like yourself like discrimination as long as it's in the right the direction and towards the right people.

But here we have an issue not really pertinent to discrimination but whether or not a certain service can be provided. You want to force the baker to make something which is against their conscience. You view this as a legitimate use of state force to compel people within society to your particular viewpoint, which is acceptance of LGBT matters.

Hence if an LGBT artist or someone in a similar setting refused to provide a similar service for an Evangelical Christian you would have no problem with the LGBT discriminating against the Evangelical. Say if there was a Conservative Church opening and they wanted some signage and the LGBT refused on the basis of being unable to support Christianity. Would you force the LGBT worker to not discriminate and provide the service?

No, you absolutely would not. So stop pretending you care about discriminations, you care only about your own worldview being advocated. Which is everything contra to Christian doctrine/standards.

Is your conservatism to fragile it can't deal with people being treated equally?

How is Jack Phillips treating people unequally? If I, a straight white man, went to Jack Phillips and asked for a pro-LGBT cake he would refuse me like he would the LGBT person.

It's not about equality to you, it's about forcing your worldview on others. Anyone who dissents from your secular atheist leftism, must be punished. That's the only standard you have.

Otherwise you only seem to rely on calling your opponents bigots. It's old and tiresome. Get better material.

 

[rjs330]

Christians opposed interracial marriage on religious grounds for generations.

They did. Unfortunately they made the claim based upon assumption and not really on any scripture that said interracial marriage was sinful. There isn't any scripture that makes the claim white people shouldn't marry black people. Those that made that a thing were bigots and claimed scripture supported their bigotry when it didn't.

The bible teaches not to marry outside your faith. It does not say not to marry outside your race.

So the idea behind the religious freedom if Christians is to find out if the religion really teaches that something is sin and if we are to participate in it. That should answer your question.

In the case of homosexuality the scripture clearly teaches it is sin and Christians shouldn't participate in it.

But the overall thought is that believers should be the ones debating biblical spiritual concepts. No I believers. Because they don't have a clue. Spiritual truth can only be spiritually discerned.

 

[SilverBear]

The equal protection clause protects religious views ad well. You are requiring someone with firmly held practice of a religion to be subservient to another protected class.

by doing something he does all day every day for everyone else.

again

bull

 

[SilverBear]

These are not mainstream and NOT supported by the government. The difference is that communism, socialist and muslim countries are governments run by those groups. These isolates preachers are certainly not running the government and are not the mainstream beliefs.

and you might have a point if not for the decades where the religious right has continuously tired to force their views on the general population and restrict the rights of minorities

 

[Aldebaran]

and you might have a point if not for the decades where the religious right has continuously tired to force their views on the general population and restrict the rights of minorities

You're just repeating the same old unfounded claim without evidence.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

by doing something he does all day every day for everyone else.

again

bull

Does Jack Phillips make pro-LGBT cakes every day in secret?

 

[SilverBear]

I don't care if a Black Hebrew Israelite doesn't want to serve a Cracker or a Jew. But Jack Phillips clearly doesn't refuse anyone on the basis of their skin colour. So why is it particularly relevant?

would it be wrong for any baker to refuse to serve African American's because of the baker's strongly held religious beliefs?

They obviously do though I don't expect to convince you. So I'll agree with you for the sake of the argument. If Twitter is allowed to ban whoever they want, why do you have a problem with a single baker?

Twitter doesn't ban whomever they want and it's false witness to say they do.

Discrimination like what exactly? As far as I can tell people like yourself like discrimination as long as it's in the right the direction and towards the right people.

I have never refused to provide my professional services to anyone much less to anyone because they were a minority.

Why do you think it's OK for anyone to do so?

But here we have an issue not really pertinent to discrimination but whether or not a certain service can be provided. You want to force the baker to make something which is against their conscience. You view this as a legitimate use of state force to compel people within society to your particular viewpoint, which is acceptance of LGBT matters.

just like how racists business owners get to serve people of color despite claims doing so goes against their conscience

Hence if an LGBT artist or someone in a similar setting refused to provide a similar service for an Evangelical Christian you would have no problem with the LGBT discriminating against the Evangelical. Say if there was a Conservative Church opening and they wanted some signage and the LGBT refused on the basis of being unable to support Christianity. Would you force the LGBT worker to not discriminate and provide the service?

why would any one refuse such a commission?

No one is refusing to serve Christians just because they are Christian. No one is demanding the special right to discriminate against Christians in areas of public accommodation....or anywhere else.

No, you absolutely would not. So stop pretending you care about discriminations, you care only about your own worldview being advocated. Which is everything contra to Christian doctrine/standards.

it's sad you think that justice, equality, freedom, and the idea of treating others they way you would like to be treated is contrary to Christianity.

How is Jack Phillips treating people unequally? If I, a straight white man, went to Jack Phillips and asked for a pro-LGBT cake he would refuse me like he would the LGBT person.

Wedding cake.

It's not about equality to you, it's about forcing your worldview on others. Anyone who dissents from your secular atheist leftism, must be punished. That's the only standard you have.

Otherwise you only seem to rely on calling your opponents bigots. It's old and tiresome. Get better material.

Please cite the posts where i have specifically called anyone a bigot.

 

[SilverBear]

They did. Unfortunately they made the claim based upon assumption and not really on any scripture that said interracial marriage was sinful. There isn't any scripture that makes the claim white people shouldn't marry black people. Those that made that a thing were bigots and claimed scripture supported their bigotry when it didn't.

just like what's going on today with LGBT individuals

 

[SilverBear]

You're just repeating the same old unfounded claim without evidence.

it is just dishonest to try and pretend that the dozens of anti-gay referendums like California's prop 8 and Colorado's initiative 2 didn't happen

 

[SilverBear]

Does Jack Phillips make pro-LGBT cakes every day in secret?

AN honest person would say wedding cakes.

 

[Aldebaran]

AN honest person would say wedding cakes.

Just as asking a Jewish baker to decorate a pro-Nazi slogan cake would be asking him to make a "Free Speech" cake? Or asking a black baker to decorate one with racial slurs on it? Can't discriminate against free speech, right?

 

[SilverBear]

Just as asking a Jewish baker to decorate a pro-Nazi slogan cake would be asking him to make a "Free Speech" cake? Or asking a black baker to decorate one with racial slurs on it? Can't discriminate against free speech, right?

what racial slurs would you be requesting be put onto your wedding cake?

 

[Aldebaran]

what racial slurs would you be requesting be put onto your wedding cake?

You just dodged the question.
Congrats!

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

AN honest person would say wedding cakes.

That's the thing isn't it? You want to force Jack Phillips to submit to your definition of marriage and subsequently what a wedding cake can be.

I wouldn't mind this position being held, the problem with people such as yourself is that you are unwilling to admit that it has more to do with a vision of society rather than it does anyone's equal rights or protections. You want the LGBT cause to be spread and Jack Phillips and anyone else who doesn't submit to your way of thinking is in the way and must be made an example of. Lest they get the idea that they can get away from LGBT.

would it be wrong for any baker to refuse to serve African American's because of the baker's strongly held religious beliefs?

Would it be wrong for a Black Hebrew Israelite to not bake a gay wedding cake?
Plenty of blacks don't like Homosexuals and wouldn't it be racist and culturally insensitive of you to force them to make such items?

Twitter doesn't ban whomever they want and it's false witness to say they do.

Again, ignoring the major part of my question.

I have never refused to provide my professional services to anyone much less to anyone because they were a minority.

Why do you think it's OK for anyone to do so?

What does this have to do with the subject? Jack Phillips isn’t refusing anyone on racial grounds. You keep bringing race into this because it’s your only go to. It’s weak and you know it.

why would any one refuse such a commission?

No one is refusing to serve Christians just because they are Christian. No one is demanding the special right to discriminate against Christians in areas of public accommodation....or anywhere else.

This is what is makes arguing with leftists infuriating. They purposefully confuse categories and misread questions. The issue isn’t Christians being refused service, it’s that Christians in the example I gave, would be refused a specific service because of ideological commitments by LGBT people. Why would we expect anything less?

Why would I expect my ideological opponent to make something contrary to their way of thinking? It's a play for power, nothing more and that's why Jack Phillips is being targeted. Mind you, I understand why Jack Phillips is such a threat. In a world which is going you way, he represents a challenge and he needs to be snuffed out, deprived of his livelihood and if possible thrown in jail.

It's a strategy of strength and in the end I do think you will win. It isn't principled or moral though.

it's sad you think that justice, equality, freedom, and the idea of treating others they way you would like to be treated is contrary to Christianity.

I think you have the ideal of Christianity confused. Political freedom is not the ideal of Christianity. That’s the ideal of liberalism. Christianity at it’s roots is quite restrictive on a whole number of things, the place of men, the place of women, how we can use money, what it is we are free to do and what we should not do. We are not encouraged in Christianity to celebrate other's sins, or tolerate our own.

What you’re doing is conflating the enlightenment with the idea of Christianity, as if it naturally comes out of Christianity that we should be free in the sense you are talking about. What is dignity? What is treating with equal respect? These are liberal conceptions of thought.

Per your paradigm Christians were guilty of great injustice in the early centuries when they refused to eat meat sacrificed to Idols. They would have offended a great many people with this standard, yet that is the Christian standard. In fact, many things Christians did was offensive and I believe, if you were there in the second century persecutions you would be like Celsus, inveighing against Christians for going against Roman values.

Why, theologically should I embrace your political liberalism when the history of Christianity up until now has been anything but that? Mind you, I see no evidence you can even think in a theological way. You seem more concerned with aggressive liberal politics, rather than any authentic Christian vision of the world.

 

[rjs330]

by doing something he does all day every day for everyone else.

again

bull

By requiring to do something specific that violates his religious beliefs. He doesn't refuse to sell in general to the LGTBQ community. He doesn't want to sell something very specific that violates his religious beliefs. This you are requiring his religious rights to be subservient to LGBTQ rights. Quit trying to say he doesn't sell to LGBTQ. Cause he does. That's a lie. It's only a specific type of creative item he doesn't want to sell. Yet you demand he does. Because his rights are not as important as yours. That's your view. LGBTQ rights are superior in your mind. His religious rights are not as important in your mind.

 

[rjs330]

just like what's going on today with LGBT individuals

No it's not because homosexuality is a sin and forbidden for believers to participate in.

 

[SilverBear]

You just dodged the question.
Congrats!

yes you did dodge...but then you usually do.

 

[SilverBear]

That's the thing isn't it? You want to force Jack Phillips to submit to your definition of marriage and subsequently what a wedding cake can be.

So which of these are wedding cakes?

 

[SilverBear]

Would it be wrong for a Black Hebrew Israelite to not bake a gay wedding cake?
Plenty of blacks don't like Homosexuals and wouldn't it be racist and culturally insensitive of you to force them to make such items?

you keep ignoring the question.


would it be wrong for any baker to refuse to serve African American's because of the baker's strongly held religious beliefs?

why can't you be honest enough to answer the question?

 

[SilverBear]

What does this have to do with the subject? Jack Phillips isn’t refusing anyone on racial grounds. You keep bringing race into this because it’s your only go to. It’s weak and you know it.

i said : "I have never refused to provide my professional services to anyone much less to anyone because they were a minority.

Why do you think it's OK for anyone to do so?"

Why are you lying about what i said?