iluvatar5150

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I am supremely frustrated that some members implied that this whole topic was some sort of right wing propaganda via an ad hominem against Fox News, and now we have another report of this happening, albeit to both parents.

At the time, I mentioned there had been other incidents, but I was ignored.
I’m supremely frustrated that some members can’t parse what they’re reading to determine what constitutes facts and what constitutes unsupported allegations.
 
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RileyG

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I don’t. I have no qualms about referring to people according to their actual sex, as opposed to their make-believe sex.
I agree completely. I don’t accept the trans cult.
 
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RileyG

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Fornication is absolutely immoral according to the Pauline Epistles, the canons of the Early Church, the writings of the Church Fathers, et cerera.

If you don’t believe me, read them: the New Testament, the Rudder (a compendium of ancient canon law), the Philokalia (a book of mystical theology which address fornication) and any other Patristic writings on the subject.

While I have an MDiv, ironically from a far left seminary, it doesn’t take an MDiv to know that fornication is regarded according to the Bible and the Church Fathers as exceedingly immoral.
I think many left people will argue teens will have pre-marital sex no matter what, so you must teach them about condoms, birth control, morning after pill, abortion etc so their lives won't be ruined. They do not put the spiritual matters into perspective. IMHO
 
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iluvatar5150

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I think many left people will argue teens will have pre-marital sex no matter what, so you must teach them about condoms, birth control, morning after pill, abortion etc so their lives won't be ruined. They do not put the spiritual matters into perspective. IMHO
If one’s goal is reducing teen pregnancies, this approach has had demonstrably better results than abstinence-only programs.
 
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RileyG

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If one’s goal is reducing teen pregnancies, this approach has had demonstrably better results than abstinence-only programs.
Yes. However, telling someone to have sex outside of marriage only spiritually harms them, regardless IMHO. I think sexual behavior is only intended for marriage, as God intended. With the grace of God, people can control their passions, regardless of age.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Yes. However, telling someone to have sex outside of marriage only spiritually harms them, regardless IMHO. I think sexual behavior is only intended for marriage, as God intended. With the grace of God, people can control their passions, regardless of age.
Teach someone how to use contraceptives no more constitutes “telling them to have sex” than teaching someone to use a seat belt constitutes telling them to speed.
 
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Teach someone how to use contraceptives no more constitutes “telling them to have sex” than teaching someone to use a seat belt constitutes telling them to speed.
.....even if they are having sex outside of marriage which can lead to their own damnation if they remain unrepentant?

Although, I understand where you are coming from.

What if the contraceptive fails? They aren't 100% reliable, you know.
 
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The Liturgist

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Teach someone how to use contraceptives no more constitutes “telling them to have sex” than teaching someone to use a seat belt constitutes telling them to speed.

The problem with contraceptives is that they are intrinsically immoral, inherently unreliable, and promote, rather than discourage, fornication.

Actually teen pregnancy really is the lesser of two evils, especially if it occurs within wedlock, so the ideal approach is simply to get people married at a younger age.
 
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iluvatar5150

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The problem with contraceptives is that they are intrinsically immoral,

No, though I appreciate that some Christian traditions teach that.

inherently unreliable,

Nothing is 100% reliable. That doesn’t stop you from relying on them.

and promote, rather than discourage, fornication.

already covered, but again, no.
Actually teen pregnancy really is the lesser of two evils, especially if it occurs within wedlock, so the ideal approach is simply to get people married at a younger age.
Well, that’s a take.
 
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The problem with contraceptives is that they are intrinsically immoral, inherently unreliable, and promote, rather than discourage, fornication.

Actually teen pregnancy really is the lesser of two evils, especially if it occurs within wedlock, so the ideal approach is simply to get people married at a younger age.
We agree on many things here on CF but I can’t agree that contraceptives are intrinsically immoral and I’m not sure getting people married at a younger age is the answer. People who married younger have a higher rate of divorce.
 
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The Liturgist

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We agree on many things here on CF but I can’t agree that contraceptives are intrinsically immoral and I’m not sure getting people married at a younger age is the answer. People who married younger have a higher rate of divorce.

This is why divorce should only be permitted in the case of domestic violence, abandonment, psycholgical abuse, or adultery. In the Orthodox Church, a canonical divorce must be approved by the ecclesiastical court, which investigates the conditions that lead to the marriage collapsing, and which will impose severe penances, including fasting until the ninth hour (3 PM) or prostrations or extra prayers or alternately exclude from the Eucharist for a set period of time, whichever parties are determined to be responsible.

In addition, one can only be remarried once, or in exceptional circumstances, twice, in Holy Orthodoxy, at least in the jurisdictions that are strict about it and actively maintain a canonical court. And it works. We have low divorce rates and high fertility rates. And this is accomplished without cult-like conditioning such as one encounters in Mormonism or in certain other heretical religions.
 
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The Liturgist

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No, though I appreciate that some Christian traditions teach that.



Nothing is 100% reliable. That doesn’t stop you from relying on them.



already covered, but again, no.

Well, that’s a take.

Fornication is specifically declared to be immoral, and an impediment to salvation, in the epistles of St. Paul. I would prefer not to have to quote the verses, and I don’t think I need to, because I believe you know what passages I am talking about.

There is also the fact that 100% of early church Fathers, as well as most anathematized heretics such as Valentinians, Marcionists, Manicheans, Arians, Montanists, Iconoclasts, Eutychians, Apollinarians, Sabellians and Nestorians, and also all three surviving forms of Judaism (Rabinnical Judaism, Karaite Judaism, and the Beta Israel of Ethiopia) regard fornication to be extremely immoral.

In fact I can’t think of any ancient, widespread religion with the exception of the extinct Pagan polytheist religions of Mesopotamia and the Mediterranean with a favorable view of fornication. Except perhaps Polynesian polytheism, but that religion is mostly extinct as well, and also perhaps the Voudon religion of Benin, and its derivatives in the Carribean.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Fornication is specifically declared to be immoral, and an impediment to salvation, in the epistles of St. Paul. I would prefer not to have to quote the verses, and I don’t think I need to, because I believe you know what passages I am talking about.

That's nice. I was responding to your claim that contraception was intrinsically immoral. Contraception != fornication.
 
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That's nice. I was responding to your claim that contraception was intrinsically immoral. Contraception != fornication.

Contraception prevents the conception of children, which is the function of coitus. It is therefore a perversion of nature. But don’t take my word for it: one of the most elegant philosophical arguments on this subject was advanced by the eminent moral theologian, Pope John Paul II, who I regard as having been the foremost moral theologian among Western Christians until his repose in 2005 (after which time, I regard Dr. James Kennedy as having been the leading moral theologian, until he was disabled by a heart attack at the end of 2006 and reposed less than a year later; since that time I am inclined to regard Dr. Albert Mohler and Gerhard Cardinal Muller as the foremost Western moral theologians. Among Eastern moral theologians, we have so many good ones in different areas of practice between the Eastern Orthodox communion, the Oriental Orthodox communion, and even the roughly one million Assyrians of the Church of the East who have now miraculously survived two attempted genocides in a one hundred year period, and who also have the largest population of vernacular Aramaic speakers in the world, nearly 700,000 strong, but one particularly well known Eastern Orthodox moral theologian I personally admire is Fr. Josiah Trenham, whose parish is also tackling the problem of excessive funeral costs and the immorality of cremation, by keeping a simple casket manufactured by the nuns at the nearby Convent of St. Barbara continually ready in the basement of his parish for the next person who will need it, and helping to organize programs to ensure even the less well off members of the Orthodox church have access to Christian burial.

For one of the few things that offends me almost as much as contraceptives is columbaria, in particular, when one sees a columbaria on a mainline Protestant parish. Christians are supposed to be buried intact, entombed inside the naves of churches, not burned up like pagans and then shoved into niches on the outside wall of the narthex. Cremation is acceptable for Christians only when it is forced on us by a third party. It is for this reason that the Eastern Orthodox churches provide only the Trisagion service, and not a full Pannihkida, or memorial service, and burial, in the case of persons who voluntarily chose to be cremated. But I digress.

I suppose you will find this all very shocking and perhaps amusing, but we Orthodox Christians have a different perspective on things, one which is based on communion and the immersive experience of liturgical beauty, in which one can experience a foretaste of the world to come, as opposed to the dry and intellectual aliturgical worship and the irreverant praise and worship music that has become dominant in so many denominations and non-denominational megachurches.

+

There is of course a stronger and more specific connection between our opposition to contraception and to cremation, that being that all humans exist in the image of Christ our True God, and so to destroy a human embryo, or to burn the body of a deceased human, is an act of iconoclasm, for it is literally destroying an icon of Christ, the same as if one melted down a crucifix, smashed a rood screen or stained glass window or set fire to an iconostasis.

Likewise, divorce is unacceptable, because families are icons of the Holy Trinity. To divorce one’s spouse without a very good reason, for example, they are abusing you physically or mentally, or exploiting you or have abandoned you, is equivalent to taking Andrei Rublev’s classic Trinitarian icon The Hospitality of Abraham and ripping it to shreds.

Iconoclasm and Pelagianism are the great evils of our time.
 
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rambot

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And moving back to the original topic, for all of those who attempted to claim it was a falsehood, we have another report of the same thing, only this time involving both parents:


Once upon a time, people were up in arms that the government could remove children from your care: How dare you take away our kids. They are our kids that we can raise how we deem fit, was the argument.

Of course, people also started to think it's not really okay to beat your kids to brittle bones; that they should not be tied up to walls for days on end and that they should be properly nourished and cared for.

Of course there were unwell parents who didn't necessarily feel that there WAS any ethical or moral obligation for parents to raise their children kindly or with compassion. And those people would lose the right to raise (note: I specifically avoided the word "care for") their child. And they would be up in arms about their rights as parents.

Until such time as you can provide evidence that unsupportive parents can provide just a safe and nurturing environment as supportive parents do, it's hard to argue that trans children ARE safe.

Data, thus far, as shown that unsupportive parents exacerbate already very tricky mental health diagnoses.
 
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Until such time as you can provide evidence that unsupportive parents can provide just a safe and nurturing environment as supportive parents do, it's hard to argue that trans children ARE safe.

On the contrary, being supportive of a gender change makes parents inherently unfit to care for children who might have “gender dysphoria”, if such a condition even exists, for such parents are themselves guilty of a most sinister form of sexual perversion, insofar as they wish to use medical means to interfere with the reproductive anatomy and functioning of their child on the basis of the false belief that sex can be changed, something entirely impossible given current technology, and something that would be entirely immoral even if we could make a functional male into a functional female with viable reproductive capabilities. Which is likely impossible altogether due to the difference in chromosome count between male and females, a hard biological difference.

It is my firm belief that any parent who seeks to promote the “conversion” of their child should not only have their access to that child subject to the most severe restrictions, but should also be incarcerated for attempted sexual assault on a minor, and forced to register as a sex offender.
 
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rambot

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On the contrary, being supportive of a gender change makes parents inherently unfit to care for children who might have “gender dysphoria”, if such a condition even exists, for such parents are themselves guilty of a most sinister form of sexual perversion, insofar as they wish to use medical means to interfere with the reproductive anatomy and functioning of their child on the basis of the false belief that sex can be changed, something entirely impossible given current technology, and something that would be entirely immoral even if we could make a functional male into a functional female with viable reproductive capabilities. Which is likely impossible altogether due to the difference in chromosome count between male and females, a hard biological difference.
That's a lot of words, but very few sentences.

And exactly no data to support it.

Fundamentally we are going to argue with different standards of evidence so im gonna dip.


It is my firm belief that any parent who seeks to promote the “conversion” of their child should not only have their access to that child subject to the most severe restrictions, but should also be incarcerated for attempted sexual assault on a minor, and forced to register as a sex offender.
Given the circumstantial different between actual sexual assault of a minor and an unwell child who is desperately seeking something the parent wants to give (and that medical science has shown to be a successful treatment), I find that position abhorrent.
 
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Given the circumstantial different between actual sexual assault of a minor and an unwell child who is desperately seeking something the parent wants to give (and that medical science has shown to be a successful treatment), I find that position abhorrent.

Children frequently seek things which they should not have. Obviously having their genitals modified to superficially resemble those of the opposite sex in such a way as to permanently destroy their reproductive capability would constitute such a folly.

It follows that a reasonable and Christian man should therefore find the opposing position to what I have articulated, namely, that one should act to grant such a self-destructive wish, to lie well beyond the dark depths of abhorrence, and instead properly belonging to the nightmarish realm of the perverse and the unspeakable, as indeed would be the reaction of nearly anyone in earlier, more civilized eras, even the late 20th century, except for the absolute vanguard of the far left.
 
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