9 year old boy without gender dysphoria “transitioned” contrary to father’s wishes

[rambot]

I am primarily concerned with reducing marriages out of wedlock and also with promoting the benefits of virginity, so as to reverse the current cultural obsession with sex and increase monastic vocations. Virginity should be celebrated. What we need to do is socially stigmatize fornication, but this will require measures to limit access to counter-cultural music, which I think can be done, since access to some songs on iTunes and other platforms is already limited, and I propose simply to expand the list of restricted music so as to encompass any music that can be interpreted as promoting fornication. I also propose to make fornication illegal.

Marriages out of wedlock?
I'm pretty sure that's a slip of the tongue.

So listen. I would really want to convince you to think about solutions that are going to work in the world that we now know. You require living in North Korea level government control to make this happen.
And making fornication illegal.

It sounds like you want society to fix a problem that only YOU think is a problem.


And all the while, you have an opportunity to fix an ACTUAL real world problem by increasing robust sexual education. You've made it pretty plain that abortion is aborrent....fair enough. So then let's do things that LIMIT abortion.

don't you think less abortions is a GOOD thing?

 

[The Liturgist]

You know you live in the US where quite a few people aren't Christian. Do you think God loves it when nonchristians are forced to pray?

Evidently you are unfamiliar with how chaplaincy in prisons, hopsitals, and the US military works. Do you really think that all the chaplains are Christians?

The way chaplaincy works is there are different chaplains from different Christian denominations and different religions; historically they were mostly Christians and Jews, but now there are Muslims and chaplains from other religions as well, including various New Age religions, and among the Christians the old duopoly of Protestant and Catholic has been substantially disrupted, so for example the beautiful chapel at the USAF academy now features an Eastern Orthodox temple, and Orthodox chaplains served on the ground in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere, alongside other Christians, Muslims, Jews and chaplains of other religions.

 

[The Liturgist]

Marriages out of wedlock?
I'm pretty sure that's a slip of the tongue.

Pregnancies out of wedlock. Slips happen.

 

[The Liturgist]

It sounds like you want society to fix a problem that only YOU think is a problem.

Most traditional Christians and conservatives I know want to see a reduction of fornication, an increase in marriage, and a de-emphasis of commercial sexualization, and the universal implementation of school vouchers to provide every family a real choice concerning education.

And all the while, you have an opportunity to fix an ACTUAL real world problem by increasing robust sexual education. You've made it pretty plain that abortion is aborrent....fair enough. So then let's do things that LIMIT abortion.

don't you think less abortions is a GOOD thing?

Of course, and since the Supreme Court repealed Roe v. Wade, they can now be made illegal, and insofar as some states are obstinately moving in the other direction, this legislation should ideally be made federal by the FBI or a successor organization, similar to kidnapping and bank robbery.

However I disagree with your argument that a curriculum that favors abstinence, while providing information on other things, but depicting them as extremely negative, for example, emphasizing the guilt, shame and stigma that accompanies fornication, and stressing that the safest sex is sex in wedlock, essentially a hybrid model of abstinence-favoring but not abstinence-only, would lead to more teen pregnancies and more demand for abortion.

Part of the problem with non-abstinence encouraging sex education is that prophylactics do not always work, condums rupture, birth control fails, and non-reproductive sex is immoral and also usually a vector for disease transmission. If we provide new systems that facilitate marriage at a young age, say, 18 or so, it would reduce the demand for fornication among the youth by providing them with a licit and moral outlet for their reproductive drives when they are at their peak.

 

[rambot]

Evidently you are unfamiliar with how chaplaincy in prisons, hopsitals, and the US military works. Do you really think that all the chaplains are Christians?

You are correct. I don't know. I have met numerous christians who have fulfilled those rolls but I've never met a nonchristian doing so. Our pastor used to work in a hospital

Pregnancies out of wedlock. Slips happen.

In addition to lowering abortion rates?

 

[The Liturgist]

I have met numerous christians who have fulfilled those rolls but I've never met a nonchristian doing so.

That does not mean they do not exist. You can visit US military websites which detail awards received over the years by chaplains of different religions.

 

[rambot]

However I disagree with your argument that a curriculum that favors abstinence, while providing information on other things, but depicting them as extremely negative, for example, emphasizing the guilt, shame and stigma that accompanies fornication, and stressing that the safest sex is sex in wedlock, essentially a hybrid model of abstinence-favoring but not abstinence-only, would lead to more teen pregnancies and more demand for abortion.

[Shrugs]. Not sure what to tell you.
You're wrong. There is data to support my position.

In my time teaching sexual health to junior high, I have ALWAYS said "Abstinence is always an option and it's the only way to guarantee no transmition of STIs and avoid pregnancy.

Part of the problem with non-abstinence encouraging sex education is that prophylactics do not always work, condums rupture, birth control fails, and non-reproductive sex is immoral and also usually a vector for disease transmission. If we provide new systems that facilitate marriage at a young age, say, 18 or so, it would reduce the demand for fornication among the youth by providing them with a licit and moral outlet for their reproductive drives when they are at their peak.

Do all of these suggestions seem possible/probable to you?

 

[The Liturgist]

sure what to tell you.
You're wrong. There is data to support my position.

I don’t see how you could have such data since what I am proposing is not abstinence only but rather a novel hybrid approach which has not been tried, one which would combine the information presently contained with information about how much better it is to stay abstinent and what a moral failure it is to lose ones virginity outside of holy matrimony.

 

[The Liturgist]

And moving back to the original topic, for all of those who attempted to claim it was a falsehood, we have another report of the same thing, only this time involving both parents:

Christian parents say daughter removed from their care after refusing to affirm gender identity

Montana s Republican Gov Greg Gianforte told the media that officials followed state policy in a case concerning two Christian parents who claim they lost custody of their daughter after they were ...

www.christianpost.com

 

[rambot]

I don’t see how you could have such data since what I am proposing is not abstinence only but rather a novel hybrid approach which has not been tried, one which would combine the information presently contained with information about how much better it is to stay abstinent and what a moral failure it is to lose ones virginity outside of holy matrimony.

It's not novel. Sorry. IT's been done before.

To say nothing of the fact that it is not a MORAL failure. You could argue it's a spiritual failure, I guess. But not moral.

 

[Margaret3110]

I don’t. I have no qualms about referring to people according to their actual sex, as opposed to their make-believe sex.

Well gender dysphoria is a recognized condition that causes very real discomfort. Even though I have qualms about the ideology and its impact on society, I accommodate adults with gender dysphoria the same way I accommodate my son who is autistic. Even if *I* don't understand why my son needs the table with the blue tablecloth instead of the red or green tablecloth, I'll accommodate him if I can, because it's important to him. I had a relative who changed her name multiple times (unrelated to gender, more of a mental health issue) and we all called her by whatever name she was going by that day. It's the same thing IMO.

 

[MarkSB]

Because we have personal friends with two intersex children (apparently both parents are carriers of a recessive gene that causes it), so it's quite clear to us that "boys are boys and girls are girls" is reductive and inaccurate.

You're referring to a biological trait of these children that you mention, I assume? What does that have to do with the larger issue of gender fluidity being taught to all children in school?

 

[iluvatar5150]

You're referring to a biological trait of these children that you mention, I assume? What does that have to do with the larger issue of gender fluidity being taught to all children in school?

What was unclear about what I wrote?

 

[MarkSB]

I support it being an option, with the more invasive and permanent options being approached very cautiously.

The problem with this is that children that age are not anywhere near the level of brain development that is required to make a sound decision for themselves. The prefrontal cortex is where the ability to plan, think about the consequences of actions, solve problems and control impulses comes from - and that part of the brain continues to develop even into early adulthood.

Using schools to teach children that gender doesn't exist and that they can decide what gender they want to be is horribly misguided. The world can be confusing enough for them, and it doesn't need to be made any worse by imposing political agendas on them. Kids can be taught to be kind and accepting without trying to completely redefine what gender is for everyone.

 

[The Liturgist]

To say nothing of the fact that it is not a MORAL failure. You could argue it's a spiritual failure, I guess. But not moral.

Fornication is absolutely immoral according to the Pauline Epistles, the canons of the Early Church, the writings of the Church Fathers, et cerera.

If you don’t believe me, read them: the New Testament, the Rudder (a compendium of ancient canon law), the Philokalia (a book of mystical theology which address fornication) and any other Patristic writings on the subject.

While I have an MDiv, ironically from a far left seminary, it doesn’t take an MDiv to know that fornication is regarded according to the Bible and the Church Fathers as exceedingly immoral.

 

[MarkSB]

What was unclear about what I wrote?

The first question was asked for confirmation - because the situation you are describing simply doesn't relate to the larger issue of gender fluidity being taught in public schools. To be fair - you haven't clarified if you support such a curriculum. But your comments throughout the thread seem to imply that you do. My apologies if I am mistaken.

 

[The Liturgist]

It's not novel. Sorry. IT's been done before.

Citation needed. Show me a link to a school which attempted precisely what I proposed and saw it backfire. Since I have a feeling you think I am advocating abstinence-only, which I was leaning towards, but realized in the course of this conversation that abstinence-directed sex education would be better, that is to say, one which covers the full range of topics but does so in a manner that stresses the superiority of simply waiting for marriage (in combination with efforts to pair off people for marriage between 18 and 22 to minimize sinful sexual temptations).

 

[The Liturgist]

Well gender dysphoria is a recognized condition that causes very real discomfort.

The moral solution to which is counseling and psychiatric treatment, and not pretending that one belongs to a different sex.

 

[The Liturgist]

I am supremely frustrated that some members implied that this whole topic was some sort of right wing propaganda via an ad hominem against Fox News, and now we have another report of this happening, albeit to both parents.

At the time, I mentioned there had been other incidents, but I was ignored.

 

[iluvatar5150]

The first question was asked for confirmation - because the situation you are describing simply doesn't relate to the larger issue of gender fluidity being taught in public schools.

Of course it doesn’t relate to the issue of school curricula, because that’s not what we were talking about when I made that comment.

To be fair - you haven't clarified if you support such a curriculum.

You’re right, I haven’t.