Affect of Church history on Jews!

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I know there is exceptions to every rule, and I agree with you that this is a tricky point that I am trying to make. It just seems that these terms (Christian, Catholic, and Protestant) are used as label far too often. A perfect example would be the previous conflicts in Northern Ireland. How often have you heard Catholic vs Protestants in that conflict? Yet it would have IMO been more accurate to speak of Irish Nationals vs British government would it not? Are most Irish nationals Catholic or come from a Catholic background? Yes. Are most British government officials and military from a Protestant background? Yes. But just because is a difference in religion doesn't make it a religious war do you think?

Whatever you think of the troubles in northern Ireland, it is really hard to make this into a religious war IMO.

Absolutely, a very good example.

 

[Harry3142]

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people - not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. (I Corinthians 5:9-13a,NIV)

As Christians our actions are to be governed by 'the fruit of the Spirit'. If the motivations listed among those 'fruit' are the impetus for our actions, then we have assurance of the actions' conforming to God's will. However, if our actions have any of the motivations which are listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature' as their impetus, then they are not conforming to God's will, even if those who are having their actions dictated by those motivations attempt to clothe them in piety.

So where does antisemitism and violence against nonbelievers have their underlying motivations found? Is it love and kindness, or is it hatred and fits of rage? Is it gentleness and self-control, or is it envy and selfish ambition? It doesn't take an 'Einstein' to answer those questions.

We Christians also need to recognize that those who are not among our fellow believers are to be left to God's judgement, and his alone. We are to concern ourselves solely with our own actions, as well as the actions of those among us who want us to accept them as fellow Christians. To desire to pass judgement on anyone who is outside the Church is to trespass on God's territory. Does anyone want to face him on that charge? I think not.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

First, you'd have to prove your assertion, that the Church from the Ascension to today, has a bloody past, the way you suggest. Has there been blood shed? Yes! Wrongly? Yes! We're a Church of sinners. There have been much worse persecutions of Christians from secular states. There has been persecution (which led to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem) of Christians by Jews.

All that aside, it was the Catholic Church in Europe during WWII that preserved and protected Jews. Some Catholics, many Catholics died protecting Jews in Europe. Many died the same way the Jews did in WWII.

Jews have been shunned by society for a long, long time, not just by Christians, but by Persians, and by secular states in Europe. That's not to say it's right.

I don't believe "the Church" ever hunted Jews down in order to kill them. I'd like to see evidence that this happened.

Spend 5 minutes on Wikipedia to learn how the Germans of the Lutheran Reformation persecuted Jews hundreds of years before Hitler did. The great Martin Luther was often quoted by the Nazis to justify what they did. Hence, the major Lutheran churches have since apologized about this embarassment.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Spend 5 minutes on Wikipedia to learn how the Germans of the Lutheran Reformation persecuted Jews hundreds of years before Hitler did. The great Martin Luther was often quoted by the Nazis to justify what they did. Hence, the major Lutheran churches have since apologized about this embarassment.

That's not the church I was talking about. "The Church" is the Catholic Church.

That said, it's not the Lutheran Church's fault that Hitler quoted Martin Luther. FWIW, the Lutherans, once entrenched, persecuted everyone else.

 

[nephilimiyr]

First, you'd have to prove your assertion, that the Church from the Ascension to today, has a bloody past, the way you suggest. Has there been blood shed? Yes! Wrongly? Yes! We're a Church of sinners. There have been much worse persecutions of Christians from secular states. There has been persecution (which led to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem) of Christians by Jews.

All that aside, it was the Catholic Church in Europe during WWII that preserved and protected Jews. Some Catholics, many Catholics died protecting Jews in Europe. Many died the same way the Jews did in WWII.

Jews have been shunned by society for a long, long time, not just by Christians, but by Persians, and by secular states in Europe. That's not to say it's right.

I don't believe "the Church" ever hunted Jews down in order to kill them. I'd like to see evidence that this happened.

I think we have to understand though that the Jews don't understand the difference between someone claiming to be a christian, and those who really are Christian. They only see christian, period. So when someone like Hitler comes along and claims to be christian, then yes, hunts down the Jews and slaughters them by the millions, many or some Jews see it as christians who did this to them.

And please allow me to also say this. Even when those Jews who do understand the difference between those who mearly claim to be christian and those who really are, they still see this in a way that supposed Christian nations turned theur bakcs to them. During the 1930's and before WWII started, there was only a small window of time in which the Jews could've left Germany and Poland. When that window of time ended the door was shut on them, and effectively their death sentence was passed. The point is, nobody wanted the Jews. The supposed Christian nations deserted them. When the window of time to be able to imigrate was open, it was usually only the very rich Jews, or those of importance, such as scientists and the like, that were able to imigrate.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

That's not the church I was talking about. "The Church" is the Catholic Church.

That said, it's not the Lutheran Church's fault that Hitler quoted Martin Luther. FWIW, the Lutherans, once entrenched, persecuted everyone else.

I don't recall the Lutheran states killing anyone convicted of heresy, which is better than you can say for Catholic, Reformed, or Anglican states.

FWIW.

 

[Erose]

I think we have to understand though that the Jews don't understand the difference between someone claiming to be a christian, and those who really are Christian. They only see christian, period. So when someone like Hitler comes along and claims to be christian, then yes, hunts down the Jews and slaughters them by the millions, many or some Jews see it as christians who did this to them.

And please allow me to also say this. Even when those Jews who do understand the difference between those who mearly claim to be christian and those who really are, they still see this in a way that supposed Christian nations turned theur bakcs to them. During the 1930's and before WWII started, there was only a small window of time in which the Jews could've left Germany and Poland. When that window of time ended the door was shut on them, and effectively their death sentence was passed. The point is, nobody wanted the Jews. The supposed Christian nations deserted them. When the window of time to be able to imigrate was open, it was usually only the very rich Jews, or those of importance, such as scientists and the like, that were able to imigrate.

Did Hitler ever really claim to be Christian? I know that he was an atheist, and very similar in belief as the Communists, in a sense that the state is IT. From history, we know that there were not just Jews in the concentration camps, but also gypsies and Christians. Over 3 million Catholics died in Poland in Concentration camps because they were Catholic. The Nazis used to go into villages in Hungary and Poland and probably other countries under their control; and close down churches, and try to force the people to renounce their "Christian God" and swear allegiance to Hitler. When they didn't they were either killed or sent to concentration camps.

Where more Jews killed by Hitler? Yes. But there was a very large amount of Christians who died under this hand as well. Hitler wasn't Christian. He was a man with a god complex, who wanted to go back to the Roman emperor worship religion.

 

[Harry3142]

Hitler was a neopaganist, as were many of his 'inner circle'. Not only did they not believe in Christianity, but they also saw orthodox Christianity as the mortal enemy of their agenda. Dr. Goebbels himself gave speeches prior to the breakout of World War 2 in which he attacked both Christ and Christianity vehemently as the enemy of the Reich.

There are numbers for the civilians who were murdered by the Nazis that range from a low of 11 million to as many as 18 million people. These were all noncombatants whom the Nazis identified as a threat to their agenda either through their being of an inferior race, their steadfastness in opposing Nazi doctrine, or their being observant Christians. The inferior races included not only Jews, but also gypsies, French, Poles, and Russians. Some they would use as slave labor, but the decision had already been made that all of these people were to eventually be exterminated when their usefulness to the Nazis had ended.

When we invaded Europe on June 6,1944, the Waffen SS was already preparing for a massive roundup of Christians, which was to begin in only 2 to 3 months. They had been 'briefed' by their commanding officers only a few weeks earlier, in which they were told that the 'solution' to the Jewish problem was nearing completion, so they were now to prepare themselves to deal with the Christian problem. The Final Solution was far from being over; it was simply redirecting its efforts toward other people.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Hitler was a neopaganist, as were many of his 'inner circle'. Not only did they not believe in Christianity, but they also saw orthodox Christianity as the mortal enemy of their agenda. Dr. Goebbels himself gave speeches prior to the breakout of World War 2 in which he attacked both Christ and Christianity vehemently as the enemy of the Reich.

There are numbers for the civilians who were murdered by the Nazis that range from a low of 11 million to as many as 18 million people. These were all noncombatants whom the Nazis identified as a threat to their agenda either through their being of an inferior race, their steadfastness in opposing Nazi doctrine, or their being observant Christians. The inferior races included not only Jews, but also gypsies, French, Poles, and Russians. Some they would use as slave labor, but the decision had already been made that all of these people were to eventually be exterminated when their usefulness to the Nazis had ended.

When we invaded Europe on June 6,1944, the Waffen SS was already preparing for a massive roundup of Christians, which was to begin in only 2 to 3 months. They had been 'briefed' by their commanding officers only a few weeks earlier, in which they were told that the 'solution' to the Jewish problem was nearing completion, so they were now to prepare themselves to deal with the Christian problem. The Final Solution was far from being over; it was simply redirecting its efforts toward other people.

Did Hitler ever really claim to be Christian? I know that he was an atheist, and very similar in belief as the Communists, in a sense that the state is IT. From history, we know that there were not just Jews in the concentration camps, but also gypsies and Christians. Over 3 million Catholics died in Poland in Concentration camps because they were Catholic. The Nazis used to go into villages in Hungary and Poland and probably other countries under their control; and close down churches, and try to force the people to renounce their "Christian God" and swear allegiance to Hitler. When they didn't they were either killed or sent to concentration camps.

Where more Jews killed by Hitler? Yes. But there was a very large amount of Christians who died under this hand as well. Hitler wasn't Christian. He was a man with a god complex, who wanted to go back to the Roman emperor worship religion.

I don't believe Hitler and most, if not all, of the Nazi's were actuall christians. I didn't mean to say or imply that Hitler himself came out and said that he was either. I do believe the facts show that during the early and mid 1930's, before the war, Hitler, inorder to woo the christian population tried to portray himself as one of them. For alot of christians during that time, they didn't believe him and were very suspect, but others believed he was. During that time in Germany most people, whether christian or not, believed Hitler to be a good man and assumed he was basically a christian. Many of his speaches during that time often held references to God being behind the German people. Did he ever discuss christianity openly in public, not that I know of, and I doubt he ever did. So while he fooled some of the christians, imagine the number of Jews he fooled as well.

 

[Harry3142]

In 1937 Pope Pius XI wrote an encyclical in which he warned Christians to beware of Nazism. It's titled Mit Brennender Sorge, and to my knowledge is the only encyclical written by a pope in a language other than Latin. Had Christians paid attention to it rather than trying to placate Hitler, Europe would have been better prepared to counter his agenda.