Adventists affirm Mark 1:15 regarding Dan 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy and pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Dan 7

[BobRyan]

You cited the whole section, so I responded to the whole section.

I stated specifically that the judgment in vs 16 is not limited to "on or after the day of wrath" and so far even you could not make that idea fly.

As we see in Rom 2 - the process/bases for accepting/rejecting names in the judgment is spelled out ..

The point remains.

 

[BobRyan]

And While you have ignored it again and again the following text specifies when that day is.


1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Dan 7 clearly states that God's judgement takes place before the seconding - just as the thread you say you are avoiding clearly shows --

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

You are wrenching 1 Cor 4 out of context to try and get it to conflict with Dan 7.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"?

Dan 7 is not about "me judging someone" ... by contrast 1 Cor 4 IS about church members judging someone.

Are these details you are skimming over supposed to be difficult for us to notice? What is your idea in this case?

 

[tall73]

Bob I am quite certain that people will see who is taking verses out of context. You cannot even find one passage that has the elements you want so you try to combine two passages.

And even then you wind up hopelessly conflicted, because the passage in Daniel 7 is about the beasts, and the little horn who persecutes the saints. There is nothing at all describing individual cases of potential saints being judged to figure out whether they are really saints. Which is why you must resort to another passage, Romans 2 to find judgment of the cases of individuals and their motives.

What Daniel 7 does describe is the authority of three beasts being removed by that judgment, which of course does not line up at all with the notion of an Adventist pre-advent judgment on just the professed followers of God. The Babylonians, Medes and Persians, Grecians, and Romans are not made up of only professed followers of God. And stripping authority of three nations, and destroying the other is also not the subject of the Adventist IJ. But it is the subject of Daniel 7. It is picturing judgments on nations, and in favor of the saints who were being persecuted by the little horn, part of the fourth beast/nation.

And then when you are presented with a text that actually does talk about all the elements, you say it is out of context.

But of course it is not. Saying that we should not pronounce judgement because the Lord will do it in his own time, is exactly the sort of context that is needed.

It notes that judgement will be by the Lord, and at the time He has appointed.

When He comes He will bring to light the things hidden in darkness and disclose the purposes of the heart, the very thing that your verses in Romans 2 were talking about. Except here the timing is given.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

And of course, the whole subject of the Adventist IJ is a red herring. The fundamental belief states a blatant untruth which anyone who reads Leviticus 16 can see. The work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement is not an investigation of individual cases from books. The high priest on the day of atonement went into God's presence and presented atoning blood.

Adventists have completely distorted the type, an issue which you will not address.

 

[BobRyan]

And While you have ignored it again and again the following text specifies when that day is.


1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Dan 7 clearly states that God's judgement takes place before the seconding - just as the thread you say you are avoiding clearly shows --

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

You are wrenching 1 Cor 4 out of context to try and get it to conflict with Dan 7.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"?

Dan 7 is not about "me judging someone" ... by contrast 1 Cor 4 IS about church members judging someone.

Are these details you are skimming over supposed to be difficult for us to notice? What is your idea in this case?

Bob I am quite certain that people will see who is taking verses out of context.

Then apparently we are both satisfied with the situation as stated.

You cannot even find one passage that has the elements you want

aside from the entire chapter of Dan 7 for the Pre-advent IJ and the Romans 2 chapter showing the process that is used for that judgment in vs 4-16 .. where as Dan 7 points out the saints are being tormented by the wicked for the entire time that judgment is taking place?

You mean... except for that??

There is "a reason" I am trying to get your responses to appear "on page 1" in those threads.

 

[BobRyan]

It notes that judgement will be by the Lord, and at the time He has appointed.

The Dan 7 chapter says the time he appoints for the judgment is before the coming of Christ and some time after the 1260 years of dark ages - and it is DURING the period where saints are being persecuted by the wicked.

But of course that is in the chapter on the pre-Advent IJ -- Dan 7... which you are not quoting at all.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

A good example of Paul instructing church members not to judge others.

Dan 7 is about God judging and it happens WHILE the saints are being persecuted by the wicked according to Dan 7 and BEFORE the appearing of Christ - according to Dan 7.

You continue to conflate two entirely different topics -- again.

The fundamental belief states a blatant untruth which anyone who reads Leviticus 16 can see. The work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement is not an investigation of individual cases from books. The high priest on the day of atonement went into God's presence and presented atoning blood.

The thread you say you are avoiding explicitly refutes your suggestion that Yom Kippur is not a judgment event. Had you taken the time to read 'page one' of that thread you would know it.

Adventists Affirm Dan 8:14, Lev 16 Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, Judgment

Dan 8:14 references the cleansing of the Sanctuary Dan 7 and Dan 8 - both deal with the problem of "the little horn" persecuting the saints. In Dan 7 the solution is the pre-advent judgment (according to the chapter). You can discuss those details for Dan 7 on the following thread...

www.christianforums.com

This is the "easy part" and is not unique to Seventh-day Adventists as that thread shows.

 

[tall73]

But of course that is in the chapter on the pre-Advent IJ -- Dan 7... which you are not quoting at all.

Well Bob, are you sure you want to say I have not quoted Daniel 7?

I have of course quoted it. And you bearing false witness is obviously noticed.

For instance, one of the times I quoted it was to point out how you were wrong about the eschaton, which you admitted.

And another resulted in you admitting the court removes the authority of the beats, which are nations by your own admission.

A good example of Paul instructing church members not to judge others.

A good example of actually speaking about judgments on the secrets of individual's hearts, unlike Daniel 7, and it specifies the timing, which is at His coming.


1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

 

[tall73]

The thread you say you are avoiding explicitly refutes your suggestion that Yom Kippur is not a judgment event. Had you taken the time to read 'page one' of that thread you would know it.

I see you had to resort to the Talmud and other sources again!

The type is in Leviticus 16 Bob, and the task of the high priest in the sanctuary is clearly stated, and involves no books or judgment.

 

[BobRyan]

I see you had to resort to the Talmud and other sources again!

Because I like refuting your wild claims that only Adventists know about these details when it comes to the Lev 16 Day of Atonement.

I thought that part would be obvious.

The type is in Leviticus 16 Bob,

Indeed it is - and the type includes judgment. This is not just known to Jews and SDAs. Do you need more sources that admit to this glaringly obvious Bible detail?

and the task of the high priest in the sanctuary is clearly stated, and involves no books or judgment.

I did not write Dan 7 -- each time you go there you don't argue with me - you argue with "The text".

 

[BobRyan]

Well Bob, are you sure you want to say I have not quoted Daniel 7?

I would say that your quotes of Dan 7 when speaking to the very details about the Judgment that Dan 7 addresses - is a rare find by contrast to my consistent reference to the actual text of Dan 7 for the details it speaks to regarding the judgment passed in favor of the saints (at its conclusion) where the entire time that the judgment is on going - the saints are persecuted by the wicked.

For instance, one of the times I quoted it was to point out how you were wrong about the eschaton, which you admitted.

I admitted that Dan 7 does involve the judgment - I think we all get that. You quoted the chapter to show that it includes judgment and ends with the appearing of Christ - which are two statements I keep making about Dan 7 from the very start.

But you keep making contradicting statements about Dan 7 then not quoting it - so it ends up being me that quotes that chapter each time you contradict it.

 

[tall73]

Because I like refuting your wild claims that only Adventists know about these details when it comes to the Lev 16 Day of Atonement.

Bob, what is obvious is that in your Scripture thread where you kept attacking @The Liturgist because of his convictions regarding quoting the text is that you couldn't find Scripture evidence so you had to quote other sources.

Your quote in the other thread references their view based on their traditions, not Scripture. And their tradition involves who will live or die each year--not an Adventist IJ.


=======
According to Jewish tradition, on Rosh Hashanah God inscribes each person's fate for the coming year into the Book of Life, and waits until Yom Kippur to "seal" the verdict.[11] This process is described dramatically in the poem Unetanneh Tokef, which is recited on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur:

A great shofar will be blown, and a small still voice will be heard. The angels will make haste, and be seized with fear and trembling, and will say: "Behold, the day of judgment!"... On Rosh Hashanah it is written, and on the Yom Kippur fast it is sealed, how many will pass and how many will be created, who will live and who will die, who in his time and who not in his time... But repentance, prayer, and charity remove the evil of the decree... For You do not desire a person's death, but rather that he repent and live. Until the day of his death You wait for him; if he repents, You accept him immediately.

Indeed it is - and the type includes judgment. This is not just known to Jews and SDAs. Do you need more sources that admit to this glaringly obvious Bible detail?

I need you to look at what Leviticus 16 actually says. But that is probably asking too much since you look at a text that says God will judge the secrets of men's hearts at His coming and ignore it.

And you still believe a message that ignored Jesus' words about no man knows the day or hour, even after it failed.

I did not write Dan 7 -- each time you go there you don't argue with me - you argue with "The text".

No Bob, I argue with your misapplication of a few lines from the texts which ignores the judgment being carried out to remove authority from nations, etc.

 

[tall73]

But you keep making contradicting statements about Dan 7 then not quoting it - so it ends up being me that quotes that chapter each time you contradict it.

Of course I already did quote it Bob. You quoting one line again doesn't prove your point.

You say there is no judgment on the nations. But there is:

The beasts, which you acknowledge represent nations, are judged:

7:11 “I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

And the fourth beast and little horn are judged by the court:

23 “Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’


And just as I said the chapter is about God judging the nations, and His being sovereign over all their dominions. The court judges the nations, and the little horn which is persecuting the saints.

And the saints are delivered form the little horn, and judgment is given by the court in their favor, and against the little horn.

Your pulling out one line and then referencing Romans 2 is by definition not looking at context, because you can't even find the details for your view present in either context.

Now Bob, the Adventist IJ, per Ellen White who you claim to believe, is only on professed followers of God. Babylon was not all professed followers of God. Neither was Greece or Persia.

The chapter is not about what you claim or you wouldn't need to bring in other passages to find what you claim.

And in the case of the work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement, you had to bring in Jewish tradition in your Scripture thread, because Leviticus 16 doesn't say what Adventist claim.

 

[tall73]

Bob having to resort to Jewish tradition again in his scripture thread points out his problem.

Leviticus shows that the activity of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement is an application of blood to atone for the sins of the people, and cleanse the sanctuary. The priest is not reviewing cases and looking at books. Adventists have changed the type.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

 

[tall73]

The Son of Man has dominion over all NATIONS, peoples, languages.

Daniel 7:13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

 

[David Kent]

That is only 482 years.

 

[David Kent]

tall73 said:
Or even stranger yet how Ellen White could endorse that message of Jesus' coming in 1843 as "heavenly" and "saving truth",



No Bob, that does not make Miller's message, that Jesus was coming in 1843, then 1844, "heavenly" or "saving truth" because it was a false message completely. Jesus did not come in 1843 or 1844. She says God wanted to test people. But that is of course complete spin.

They ignored what the Scriptures said to give the false message in the first place.

Matthew 24:4 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Her argument that those who actually followed what Jesus said were lost because of it is ridiculous.

You have not tried, and could not, answer that objection. Because to do so you would have to say that the only way to pass the test Ellen White alleges is to ignore Jesus' own words.

The sda came out of the Millerites who also made false prophecies,the JWs came out of both, oh and they made false prophecies. The SDA stole the historicist teaching.

Another group who stole historic teaching is the British Israelites but they changed quite a lot for instance the thought the abomination of desolation was the Muslim taking Jerusalem quoting the bishop of Jerusalem muttering "The abomination of desolation is now standing in the Holy place."
Historicist teaching actually goes back to the earliest church writers. They understood that the let and hindrance in 2:Thessalonians 2 is the emperor and the Empire. Which when they were taken out of the way (not overthrown) the empire would be split into 10 , then the Antichrist would take his place in the temple of God, the church. Tertullian said "We pray for the continuation of the Caesar, because we know what calamities would come upon the earth if he were taken out if the way.

Remember Paul said that he told the Thessalonians, and said you know these things because when I was with you, I told you

The church wouldn't have forgotten those things so soon after.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

But you keep making contradicting statements about Dan 7 then not quoting it - so it ends up being me that quotes that chapter each time you contradict it.

Of course I already did quote it Bob.

Well if you are happy with your quote of Dan 7 then I am certainly ok with it since I already have this thread on Dan 7 making my point.

As we see here -

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment -


Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court")

vs 9 begins after the rise and fall of the 4th empire in Dan 7 (Pagan Rome)

We see the investigative judgment in vs 9-10 (investigating out of the content of books of record) in this courtroom.

Dan 7:​

9 “I kept looking​

Until thrones were set up,​

And the Ancient of Days took His seat;​

His garment was white as snow,​

And the hair of His head like pure wool.​

His throne was ablaze with flames,​

Its wheels were a burning fire.​

10 A river of fire was flowing​

And coming out from before Him;​

Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,​

And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;​

The court convened,​

And the books were opened.​

"Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.​

Job 1 and Job 2 give us a clear view of how the court is very interested in those claimed to be saints - taking a lot of time to review the details - but is not very interested in the idea of proving that the wicked who oppress Job "are indeed wicked" ... since that part is obvious to all. In fact in Rom 3:23 "ALL have sinned" so from the heavenly court POV the interesting part is that there is A SAINT. That claim is reviewed closely as we see in Job 1 and also in 2 Cor 5:10 "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (we -- means this includes the saints)

Persecution of saints happens WHILE this courtroom judgment in Dan 7 takes place - and continues - until judgment completes.

23 “This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.​

​

Then the kingdom of this world is turned over to Christ and saints. This is the Advent of Christ so all that came before is pre-advent

27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’​

You quoting one line again doesn't prove your point.

Your refusal to go that thread on Dan 7 above where we find my post above - speaks volumes.

You say there is no judgment on the nations. But there is:

The beasts, which you acknowledge represent nations, are judged:

7:11 “I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

What I said in real life is that the statement in is about Judgment concerning the saints - passed in favor of the saints.

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

This is irrefutable.
Details matter.

Your pulling out one line and then referencing Romans 2 is by definition not looking at context

I have that Dan 7 post for all to review - anyone can see that the detail about saints in the judgment and all during that judgment being tormented by the wicked -- destroys your entire suggestion about when this takes place.

How is that even a little bit difficult to see?

, because you can't even find the details for your view present in either context.

Now Bob, the Adventist IJ, per Ellen White who you claim to believe, is only on professed followers of God

Read the post above on Dan 7 that you claim to be ignoring... read Job 1 and Job 2.

 

[BobRyan]

tall73 said:
Did you just forget Bob that you haven't shown us where in Scripture you get the idea of an investigative judgment

Except in that thread above on Dan 7 which you claim you are not looking at.

being the work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of atonement

As I already showed you in triplicate and even with its own dedicated thread as well -- all of the Pre-Advent IJ details you object to where already shown to you from Dan 7 alone.

Then we get to the work of High Priest on Yom Kippur in judgment in this thread

Adventists Affirm Dan 8:14, Lev 16 Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, Judgment

Dan 8:14 references the cleansing of the Sanctuary Dan 7 and Dan 8 - both deal with the problem of "the little horn" persecuting the saints. In Dan 7 the solution is the pre-advent judgment (according to the chapter). You can discuss those details for Dan 7 on the following thread...

www.christianforums.com

which you claim you are not looking at.

in the first place? Because that is definitely not in the text.

I guess if you are determined not to read the thread that deals with your topic - you can keep posting that.

 

[BobRyan]

The sda came out of the Millerites

That's what we always say - but we never claim the Millerites were SDA.

who also made false prophecies,the JWs came out of both

Many groups sprang out of Christian groups including Jim Jones' group. That form of pejorative does not age well when details are reviewed.

, oh and they made false prophecies. The SDA stole the historicist teaching.

We never claimed to invent it - rather we claim that it is a Protestant principle that we hold to and which many groups today choose to reject.
Your use of "stole" is odd. Are you familiar with the definition for that word?

Historicist teaching actually goes back to the earliest church writers

IN fact we would say it goes back to the first century NT church.. So then "the Bible"

 

[tall73]

I didn't claim I wasn't reading it. I don't intend to go post in a new thread every time you decide the one we are conversing in is not going well for you.

You still didn't show in your new thread that the high priest in the sanctuary on the day of atonement was investigating books.

 

[BobRyan]

I didn't claim I wasn't reading it. I don't intend to go post in a new thread every time you decide the one we are conversing in is not going well

Never said anything about "not going well". What I said is that I would highlight the point you are apparently not interested in seeing "on page one" of the thread - by starting thread just on that one Dan 7 pre-Advent IJ judgment out of the books of record where judgment is passed "in favor of the saints" all the while the saints are being tormented by the wicked - as Dan 7 points out.

Having you respond to that detail "on page one" instead of buried 80 posts deep into the thread - is what you are getting around in this case. It also helps to create "reference threads" for each of the 2 or 3 key points in this discussion that make it easy for anyone to find.

You still didn't show in your new thread that the high priest in the sanctuary on the day of atonement was investigating books.

Because as I stated repeatedly Dan 7 provides that detail -- you know the topic of a dedicated thread on that very point.. you know ... the thread you claim you are not addressing...

Your idea that the same detail about the judgment must be repeated each time we find it - in scripture "is odd" to say the least.

Only one of the gospel mentions "Father let this cup pass from me" but that does not mean it is not there.

Is this really all you have for the thread on the Sanctuary?? If so I can see why you are not posting there.