Adventists affirm Mark 1:15 regarding Dan 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy and pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Dan 7

[BobRyan]

The Archive version is free to download but absolutely massive compared to the notes in my KJV Study Bible, my Orthodox Study Bible and my Lutheran Study Bible, which in all three mainly consist of footnotes explaining doctrine

I don't know why you would need to read all of those commentaries.
I already gave the short list here for the case you were talking about. And there is an entire thread for the Dan 7 conversation.

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

As you already noted -- this Mark 1:14-15, Dan 9 thread is not on the Dan 7 topic for the thread above.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't know why you would need to read all of those commentaries.
I already gave the short list here for the case you were talking about. And there is an entire thread for the Dan 7 conversation.

Simply put, in this particular case I am completely confused, unlike in our discussion of Mark 7:13 or John ch. 6 where I was able to fully grasp what your interpretation is and the reason for it, even though I disagree. In the case of the books of Daniel and Mark 1:15, you have made clear what you believe they mean, but I cannot figure out how you got there, to my chagrin - I promise you with all solemnity that I am not being intentionally obtuse. That is why I asked if you could do a verse by verse exegesis of all these scriptures, kind of like a spreadsheet, with the verse number and your understanding of what it means. It would be hypocritical of me to ask you to include the text but what I would do there is pull up the chapters in the Septuagint, the KJV, the NIV and the Challoner Douai Rheims and an additional version of your choosing unless you are content with the KJV. Additionally any New Testament verses such as Mark 1:15 I would also open in the Peshitta and the Vetus Latina, so that way I would have three variants of the Byzantine text type, one of the Minority text from the NIV and one of the obscure so-called Western text type, which was also used by the 3rd century Syriac translation of the four Gospels, the Vetus Syria, which was translated to replace the dreadful Diatessaron, a disastrously dull “Gospel Harmony” which is where someone takes the four canonical Gospels and turns them into one book.

 

[tall73]

Simply put, in this particular case I am completely confused, unlike in our discussion of Mark 7:13 or John ch. 6 where I was able to fully grasp what your interpretation is and the reason for it, even though I disagree. In the case of the books of Daniel and Mark 1:15, you have made clear what you believe they mean, but I cannot figure out how you got there, to my chagrin - I promise you with all solemnity that I am not being intentionally obtuse. That is why I asked if you could do a verse by verse exegesis of all these scriptures, kind of like a spreadsheet, with the verse number and your understanding of what it means. It would be hypocritical of me to ask you to include the text but what I would do there is pull up the chapters in the Septuagint, the KJV, the NIV and the Challoner Douai Rheims and an additional version of your choosing unless you are content with the KJV. Additionally any New Testament verses such as Mark 1:15 I would also open in the Peshitta and the Vetus Latina, so that way I would have three variants of the Byzantine text type, one of the Minority text from the NIV and one of the obscure so-called Western text type, which was also used by the 3rd century Syriac translation of the four Gospels, the Vetus Syria, which was translated to replace the dreadful Diatessaron, a disastrously dull “Gospel Harmony” which is where someone takes the four canonical Gospels and turns them into one book.

Probably the easiest way to get an understanding quickly is to listen to someone explain it. This is a popularized version by Doug Batchelor, who is a well known Adventist pastor and evangelist. He also was SabbathBlessings' pastor, and coincidentally, the pastor who baptized Adventist Heretic.

This video should start at the 19:24 timestamp to get past some of the introductory items at the evangelistic series. If you wish you can watch those as well.

The actual content lasts until about the one hour mark. So there is roughly 40 minutes of explanation. This video focuses on the 2,300 days of Daniel 8, and the 70 weeks of Daniel 9.

After that we can post one on Daniel 7 as well. But it will make more sense if you watch this first.

 

[tall73]

Simply put, in this particular case I am completely confused, unlike in our discussion of Mark 7:13 or John ch. 6 where I was able to fully grasp what your interpretation is and the reason for it, even though I disagree. In the case of the books of Daniel and Mark 1:15, you have made clear what you believe they mean, but I cannot figure out how you got there, to my chagrin - I promise you with all solemnity that I am not being intentionally obtuse. That is why I asked if you could do a verse by verse exegesis of all these scriptures, kind of like a spreadsheet, with the verse number and your understanding of what it means. It would be hypocritical of me to ask you to include the text but what I would do there is pull up the chapters in the Septuagint, the KJV, the NIV and the Challoner Douai Rheims and an additional version of your choosing unless you are content with the KJV. Additionally any New Testament verses such as Mark 1:15 I would also open in the Peshitta and the Vetus Latina, so that way I would have three variants of the Byzantine text type, one of the Minority text from the NIV and one of the obscure so-called Western text type, which was also used by the 3rd century Syriac translation of the four Gospels, the Vetus Syria, which was translated to replace the dreadful Diatessaron, a disastrously dull “Gospel Harmony” which is where someone takes the four canonical Gospels and turns them into one book.

This is on Daniel 7, the 1,260 days, etc. It should start around 14:11

 

[David Kent]

You do if you want that timeline to apply as Christ stated it in Mark 1:14-15 (which I note that you are not touching at this point).


Convoluted as that is - a great many Bible scholars and commentators point to the day year direct and straightforward application by contrast -- where the Ezra 7 start for that decree in 457 B.C. exactly fulfills Christ's statement about it being fulfilled in 27 A.D. in Mark 1.

Ezra 7 -- 457 BC
Acts 1:15 - 26 AD

Exactly 69 weeks of years -- 483 prophetic days... is 483 literal years.

457
+26
- 1 as there is no year 0.=
482 not 483

 

[BobRyan]

457
+26
- 1 as there is no year 0.=
482 not 483

457 to year 1AD (no zero year) is 457 years. So the year after 1BC is not zero... it is 1 AD.
483 - 457 = 26. so adding 26 to 1 A.D.
So then AD 27

 

[BobRyan]

Simply put, in this particular case I am completely confused, unlike in our discussion of Mark 7:13 or John ch. 6 where I was able to fully grasp what your interpretation is and the reason for it, even though I disagree. In the case of the books of Daniel and Mark 1:15, you have made clear what you believe they mean, but I cannot figure out how you got there, to my chagrin

1. The books of Daniel 7 (so then the Daniel 7 topic) - contain the record of deeds of the individual as Rev 20 proves beyond a shadow of a doubt where it also uses the Books of records. If this is not clear - help me understand what is not clear about it.

2. Mark 1:14-15 relates to Dan 9 -- which is the topic for this thread it deals with the first coming of Christ and shows a link to the Dan 7 topic of the judgment "out of books". So those are the details I was speaking to - for that topic - not specifically the books of record in Dan 7 and Rev 20. See this post --- #1 Again if I am not making that clear - let me know.

That is why I asked if you could do a verse by verse exegesis of all these scriptures, kind of like a spreadsheet

Ok -- so I agree that I did not go verse by verse in Dan 9 or in Dan 7. I thought you just wanted to look at the Dan 7 verses that are specifically about the judgment/court scene in Dan 7. So I simply highlighted those specific verses with verse numbers -- #198

Which way do you want to do that?

, with the verse number and your understanding of what it means. It would be hypocritical of me to ask you to include the text but what I would do there is pull up the chapters in the Septuagint, the KJV, the NIV and the Challoner Douai Rheims and an additional version of your choosing unless you are content with the KJV.

1. I am ok with KJV or NKJV or NASB (note this post for reference #208 )
2. I of course would make no objection at all to anything that is done verse-by-verse

Additionally any New Testament verses such as Mark 1:15 I would also open in the Peshitta and the Vetus Latina,

That is fine with me. But you need to tell me if you want to look at the Mark 1:14-15 connection with Dan 9 or if you want to go through the Dan 7 topic.

 

[BobRyan]

some of the details in Dan 7.

there we find that
1. the court room event takes place after the rising of the 4th empire, and its 11th horn. (vs 7-10)
It takes place after the 11th horn has eliminated 3 of the initial 10 horns. vs 8
It takes place while the 11th horn persecutes the saints vs 20-26
It takes place before the vs 27 appearing of Christ. vs 25-27

References this text in Dan 7

. 7 After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed, and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 While I was thinking about the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the previous horns were plucked out before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like human eyes, and a mouth uttering great boasts.

The Ancient of Days Reigns​

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.

...

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and a kingdom,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me. 16 I approached one of those who were standing by and began requesting of him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.

(Taken to be four kingdoms/empires as we see in Dan 2 and in Dan 8)

18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and take possession of the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed, and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, and before which three of the horns fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts, and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

23 “This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth which will be different from all the other kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth and trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.


27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’

===============================

Here is a great example of why I started the thread on Dan 7 and keep suggesting that these Dan 7 posts -- seriously consider posting on the Dan 7 thread instead of this Mark 1:14-15, Dan 9 70 weeks thread.

 

[David Kent]

457 to year 1AD (no zero year) is 457 years. So the year after 1BC is not zero... it is 1 AD.
483 - 457 = 26. so adding 26 to 1 A.D.
So then AD 27

Agreed, my bad.

 

[David Kent]

Some basic rules
1. All Bible timelines are contiguous. so then the 70 years of Dan 9:1-4 are all one block. one timeline.
2. Apocalyptic symbolic timelines use day-for-year as in the case of Dan 7 , Dan 8, Dan 9, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13

Dan 8 and Dan 7 address the same "little horn" problem - with the same solution.
But they give it two different names.

Since Dan 8 has its missing start date given in Dan 9 -- then the 2300 years of Dan 8 end in 1844

======================================================================
Some will respond by ignoring all the texts listed in this thread above and just posting something like "so-and-so has some other view of it"
OR they will respond by ignoring all the texts listed here and just posting "your view agrees with so-and-so".

For the purposes of this thread - we are looking for sola-scriptura substantive comments opposed to the OP or in agreement with it.
Both are fine.

Bob The little horn in Daniel 8 is Antiochus Epiphanies and Daniel says:
Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.



It was a true time so not on the year day scale in that case.

 

[David Kent]

I agree that Daniel tells us the exact time of Jesus’ appearing, but the rest of your logic is contradicted by the Lord Himself in Acts chapter 1. “It is not for you to know the times and seasons which the Father has fixed by His own authority.” Jesus even tells us in Matthew 24 that no one knows the end of times, not the Angels in Heaven, just the Father only.
Jesus warns us that it is better to keep His commands rather than speculate on the time of His coming. He said that many people will come and claim to have knowledge of the end times, but He says no one knows.

Is God a liar, or are you mistaken?

Neither. They are referring to the first appearance which was plainly understood by the Jews who were looking for the fulfillment and kept as,ing Jesus if it was him. He did not reply because to those who had to know had it revealed to them, such as the disciples, blind Bartimaeus and others, as well as Paul later.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob The little horn in Daniel 8 is Antiochus Epiphanies

He can't be Antiochus Epiphanies because
1. Dan 8 says that little horn grows to exceed both the Empire of Persis and the Empire of Greece -- only Rome did that.. not the minor king "Antiochus Epiphanies".

2. Antiochus never did anything significant for either 2300 years or for 2300 days.

3. Dan 8 asks "how long is the VISION" in vs 13.. So how long a time period is covered by the vision - that starts with Persia according to the text and ends with the little horn that grows greater than either Persia or Greece. The 2300 year timeline covers it - but 2300 days does not.

4. The start date event is not given in Dan 8 -- but Dan 9 is given as the explanation for the Dan 8 vision according to the text in Dan 9. The missing piece of information Dan 9 gives for that 2300 year timeline - is the start date via the starting event. IT is the same start point in both Dan 8 and its 2300 as well as Dan 9 and its 490 years

 

[David Kent]

He can't be Antiochus Epiphanies because
1. Dan 8 says that little horn grows to exceed both the Empire of Persis and the Empire of Greece -- only Rome did that.. not the minor king "Antiochus Epiphanies".

2. Antiochus never did anything significant for either 2300 years or for 2300 days.

3. Dan 8 asks "how long is the VISION" in vs 13.. So how long a time period is covered by the vision - that starts with Persia according to the text and ends with the little horn that grows greater than either Persia or Greece. The 2300 year timeline covers it - but 2300 days does not.

4. The start date event is not given in Dan 8 -- but Dan 9 is given as the explanation for the Dan 8 vision according to the text in Dan 9. The missing piece of information Dan 9 gives for that 2300 year timeline - is the start date via the starting event. IT is the same start point in both Dan 8 and its 2300 as well as Dan 9 and its 490 years

DANIEL 8:8-12 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The little horn came forth from one of the four horns that the empire of Alexander split into, the Seleucid kindom based in Antioch. This has nothing to do with Daniel 9.

Daniel 8 expands on the 3rd empire.

 

[BobRyan]

DANIEL 8:8-12 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The little horn came forth from one of the four horns that the empire of Alexander split into, the Seleucid kindom based in Antioch. This has nothing to do with Daniel 9.

Daniel 8 expands on the 3rd empire.

The little horn comes from one of the four winds (four points of the compass)

Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds (feminine) of heaven (Masculine). And out of one (feminine) of them (Masculine) (one of the four winds) came forth a little horn

"of out the “four winds of heaven,” which is the immediate antecedent of the phrase, “and out of one of them.” The original Hebrews reads, “and from the one, from them,” the “them” being the plural nouns closest to the phrase itself, which are “the four winds of heaven” (in Hebrew “heaven” is a plural noun). Much grammatical, syntactical, and contextual evidence points to “the winds of heaven,” not the four “notable ones,” as the origin point of the little horn power."


Vs 8 To the four winds (feminine), Of the heavens(masculine)

Vs 9 “From the one” (feminine), “from them” Masculine