Adventists affirm Mark 1:15 regarding Dan 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy and pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Dan 7

[tall73]

It is in favor of the saints. And the little horn persecution of the saints ends once that judgment (as detailed in Rom 2:4-16) is complete. Only then does the Kingdom of Christ rule on Earth.

Of course the judgment is in favor of the saints, and against the little horn power. They are delivered from the little horn. Your text said nothing about an IJ of individual cases of the saints in absentia.

And Romans 2 does not show the Adventist IJ.

Romans 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the [c]Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

The text refers to the day of wrath, the day God judges the secrets of men.

Once again the day of wrath is when rewards are given. It is not the in absentia Adventist IJ when you might not even now that your name came up.

And the day when God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ is already stated in plain texts that describe us appearing before Christ and giving an account. We looked at Romans 14,
2 Corinthians 5, etc. which all talk about appearing, kneeling, confessing ,etc.

I Corinthians 4 further spells out the day when God reveals secrets, and says do not judge anything before the time--BEFORE The Lord comes. That is the time of the judgment where men's hearts are revealed.

I Corinthians 4:4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

There is ZERO indication in the text that the little horn's condemnation is "in doubt" at any point during that judgment.

Or any of the other powers, because the purpose of the text is showing God's Sovereignty over the nations of this earth, and His deliverance of His people. You pointed to this as your text showing individual judgement of cases to see who is a saint, but this does not show that.


tall73 said:

First, I already noted in the vision portion that the other beasts also have their authority stripped in this judgment.

Which changes nothing and is not something that I have challenged in my statements about Dan 7 either here on this thread or on the Dan 7 focused thread

Of course it changes something. You claim chapter 7 is showing the investigative judgment, but the investigative judgment is supposed to involve only the professed people of God. Babylon, Persia, Media, and Rome were not all professed people of God. It does not match up.

Nor does it describe what you claim anyway, as it does not show judgment of individuals to see who is a saint. The saints are already identified a a group before the judgment sits.

And the texts that do show individual judgment happen in person, before Christ, where we give account, receive our reward, etc. And that again does not match the Adventist IJ.

And of course, the IJ was not what the high priest did in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement to start with.

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

They are included in the judgment of Dan 7:9-10 and even you would know that identifying them would involve that judgment.
This is irrefutable.

Of course they are included in the judgment. In the same way the widow who wanted justice against her adversary was included in the judgment, and judgment was given in her favor. You ignore the whole context of the chapter being about God's sovereignty over the nations of men, and His judgment of them, and the establishment of His kingdom, and try to insert individual judgment to IDENTIFY saints which is not pictured at all, because they are shown as a group, already identified prior to the judgment, and the judgment results in their adversary being destroyed, and their deliverance.

No doubt that deleting almost all the details in Dan 7 does leave at least that bit -- left.
I choose not to do that.

I have certainly not deleted them, and have discussed the actual context while you keep quoting one line. And the line doesn't even describe what you claim.

There is that pesky Rom 2:4-16 text that I keep bringing which in fact does that very thing. It describes the judgment of Dan 7 - in detail.

Of course it doesn't show an Adventist IJ, because the day that the hearts of men are revealed is already set--when the Lord comes.

I Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

 

[tall73]

I call it "free will" and simply note that people are free to speculate anything they wish and can avoid the text of scripture if that is what they need to do in those cases.

Those following along might notice that you have not in fact explained everything from Scripture. You speak of "speculating" and "avoiding the text" of Scripture.

Did you just forget Bob that you haven't shown us where in Scripture you get the idea of an investigative judgment being the work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of atonement in the first place? Because that is definitely not in the text. And the last time you tried you wound up, ironically, appealing to Jewish tradition to try to make your point.

Adventists re-invented the type.

From the Adventist fundamental belief on the Sanctuary:

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment

Instead of what Leviticus 16 describes the High Priest as actually doing when He goes into the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement you have a judgement of individual cases, investigation of books, etc. None of that matches the text. Here is what the text says the high priest does when entering the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement:

Leviticus 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel.

The High Priest in the Most Holy Place applies cleansing blood to make atonement for the sanctuary and for all the assembly of Israel.

There is no reference to books, to investigation, or to individual cases. It is a corporate provision for the whole camp.

It is outside where those who do not afflict themselves are cut off from the camp. But there is no investigation work being done in the type by the High Priest.

Jesus provided that entry by means of blood into God's presence for us in the first century. Now we accept it or not, and are cut off or not.

Hebrews 1:3b When He had by Himself made purfication of sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the holies once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 9:23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself

The text says Jesus entered once for all, by means of blood. That won't be happening again, because it already happened. So Ellen White's vision of the door for the first time being opened to the Most Holy Place is wrong:

Review and Herald, August 1, 1849 par. 2

This door was not opened, until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the Holy Place of the Sanctuary in 1844. Then, Jesus rose up, and shut the door in the Holy Place, and opened the door in the Most Holy, and passed within the second vail, where he now stands by the Ark; and where the faith of Israel now reaches. (Review and Herald, August 1, 1849 par. 2)

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the holy places once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Entry was not "by means of" blood into the first compartment of the sanctuary. And goats blood only went into the sanctuary on two occasions, the inauguration, and the Day of Atonement.

And here Jesus did it once for all, in the first century. There will be no more entries.

Jesus already entered into God's presence for us:

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us

 

[tall73]

If someone would like to propose a way to discuss the OP and topic of Mark 1:15, Dan 9 and the 70 weeks without actually quoting the Bible-- and it is a reliable proven method where various points of view reconcile - please provide your example.

I am pretty sure taunting @The Liturgist regarding his personal convictions is not a method that will be successful in regards to reconciling points of view.

 

[BobRyan]

Did you just forget Bob that you haven't shown us where in Scripture you get the idea of an investigative judgment

we see it in this thread - as stated before.

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

being the work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of atonement

I showed the Investigative Judgment in Dan 7 without even going there.
This is where your suggestion seems fail.

(I also agree with that teaching as well but the IJ is already there in Dan 7 as pointed out already.

Adventists re-invented the type.

From the Adventist fundamental belief on the Sanctuary:

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment

Instead of what Leviticus 16 describes the High Priest as actually doing when He goes into the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement you have a judgement of individual cases, investigation of books, etc. None of that matches the text. Here is what the text says the high priest does when entering the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement:

Leviticus 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel.

The High Priest in the Most Holy Place applies cleansing blood to make atonement for the sanctuary and for all the assembly of Israel.

There is no reference to books, to investigation, or to individual cases. It is a corporate provision for the whole camp.

It is outside where those who do not afflict themselves are cut off from the camp. But there is no investigation work being done in the type by the High Priest.

Jesus provided that entry by means of blood into God's presence for us in the first century. Now we accept it or not, and are cut off or not.

Hebrews 1:3b When He had by Himself made purfication of sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the holies once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 9:23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself

The text says Jesus entered once for all, by means of blood. That won't be happening again, because it already happened. So Ellen White's vision of the door for the first time being opened to the Most Holy Place is wrong:

Review and Herald, August 1, 1849 par. 2

This door was not opened, until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the Holy Place of the Sanctuary in 1844. Then, Jesus rose up, and shut the door in the Holy Place, and opened the door in the Most Holy, and passed within the second vail, where he now stands by the Ark; and where the faith of Israel now reaches. (Review and Herald, August 1, 1849 par. 2)

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the holy places once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Entry was not "by means of" blood into the first compartment of the sanctuary. And goats blood only went into the sanctuary on two occasions, the inauguration, and the Day of Atonement.

And here Jesus did it once for all, in the first century. There will be no more entries.

Jesus already entered into God's presence for us:

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for

Yeah that's the argument that fails regarding your opposition to the Bible teaching on the Pre-advent IJ because it already is a fact -- just based on Dan 7 and Rom 2:4-16 alone.

Your Heb 9 argument is not in this thread or in the Dan 9 IJ thread.

I can add one for you on Heb 9 and Dan 8 as it pertains to the Dan 7 IJ

 

[BobRyan]

I am pretty sure taunting @The Liturgist regarding his personal convictions is not a method that will be successful

Which is why I choose not to do it.

 

[BobRyan]

Of course the judgment is in favor of the saints, and against the little horn power. They are delivered from the little horn. Your text said nothing about an IJ of individual cases of the saints in absentia.

Rom 2 speaks of the IJ process in heaven prior to the second coming. And it says it continues WHILE saints are being persecuted by the little horn. Your argument fails there. period.

And Romans 2 does not show the Adventist IJ.

Dan 7 shows the pre-advent IJ.

Rom 2 shows the PROCESS that they use in that judgment

Like THIS

Romans 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the [c]Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Dan 7 shows us that this process takes place before Christ's return WHILE the saints are being overpowered by the wicked.
Rom 2 says Jesus is the one who judges.
But neither says that the judgment does not start until Jesus appears in the sky

The text refers to the day of wrath, the day God judges the secrets of men.

There is no "on the day of wrath" in Rom 2:16 -- and we both know it.

Once again the day of wrath is when rewards are given.

Christ's appearing is when rewards are given - but prior to that is the judgment WHILE saints are being persecuted as Dan 7 points out.

Your blind spot seems to be the existence of Dan 7 -- at least in the arguments you make.

It is not the in absentia Adventist IJ

If you think that saints go to heaven -- and have people on earth persecuting them while they are being judged - then your eschatology is pretty extreme. Even you think that Christ appears and then has the little horn persecute the saints while He judges them - your eschatology is pretty extreme.

 

[tall73]

tall73 said:
Did you just forget Bob that you haven't shown us where in Scripture you get the idea of an investigative judgment being the work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of atonement in the first place? Because that is definitely not in the text.

I showed the Investigative Judgment in Dan 7 without even going there.
This is where your suggestion seems fail.

Without going there Bob? I am sure you did not want to go there! Your reference to Jewish tradition last time instead of Scripture was not very convincing.

1. MIller claims Jesus is coming in 1844. That didn't happen.

2. Adventist then indicate what REALLY happened was Jesus began the Day of Atonement in 1844

And then Bob proves it by.....showing an investigative judgment? That makes zero sense.

The type didn't spell out an "investigative judgment" when describing what the high priest did in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

So whether you find an investigative judgment in Daniel 7 or Romans 2 (and I already showed it doesn't match up in my other posts), that doesn't have anything to do with the Day of Atonement. Adventists just made that up. They tried to change the meaning of the type in the first place.

The Fundamental belief says:

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment

That statement is untrue. The work of the high priest in the sanctuary, on the Day of Atonement was not to investigate cases or books.

Here is what the text says the high priest does when entering the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement:

Leviticus 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel.

The High Priest in the Most Holy Place applies cleansing blood to make atonement for the sanctuary and for all the assembly of Israel.

There is no reference to books, to investigation, or to individual cases. It is a corporate provision for the whole camp.

It is outside where those who do not afflict themselves are cut off from the camp. But there is no investigation work being done in the type by the High Priest in the sanctuary.

If you are not willing to go there you have conceded the whole argument.

 

[tall73]

Rom 2 speaks of the IJ process in heaven prior to the second coming. And it says it continues WHILE saints are being persecuted by the little horn. Your argument fails there. period.

Are you confused Bob? Romans 2 doesn't say a thing about the little horn persecuting the saints.

 

[tall73]

Rom 2 speaks of the IJ process in heaven prior to the second coming. And it says it continues WHILE saints are being persecuted by the little horn. Your argument fails there. period.

If you meant Daniel 7 shows the judgment going on while the saints are being persecuted--of course. It shows God judging the nations, including those who are not professed followers of God, showing it is not the IJ. It includes God judging the little horn who is oppressing the saints, then He steps in.

Dan 7 shows the pre-advent IJ.

Rom 2 shows the PROCESS that they use in that judgment

Incorrect. Daniel 7 is its own context, and says nothing about an individual judgment to determine who the saints are.

Romans 2 was already addressed, the day Christ examines hearts is at His coming

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

There is no "on the day of wrath" in Rom 2:16 -- and we both know it.

Christ's appearing is when rewards are given - but prior to that is the judgment WHILE saints are being persecuted as Dan 7 points out.

Bob, you cited the whole passage, and there very much is a day of wrath mentioned:

Romans 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”

And Romans 2 spells out the timing of the judgment:

Romans 2:16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

And we know when that is:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

 

[tall73]

Your blind spot seems to be the existence of Dan 7 -- at least in the arguments you make.

There is no blindspot in Daniel 7. You seem to pretend the entire first part of the chapter is not there, but I acknowledge the whole chapter, and it does not show an Adventist IJ.

But more than that, your blind spot is that you are looking for an investigative judgment in the first place. The high priest in the sanctuary in the type of the day of atonement was not looking at books, but applying cleansing blood. Adventists changed the type.

If you think that saints go to heaven -- and have people on earth persecuting them while they are being judged - then your eschatology is pretty extreme.

Your own confusion is not my problem.

The saints will appear before the judgment seat of Christ, kneel, confess, bow, give an account.

And you trying to blend different texts, none of which actually describe an Adventist IJ is your own knot to untangle.

And of course it is pointless because the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement didn't conduct a judgment of individual cases out of books, but applied cleansing blood for the sins of the people.

Adventists changed the type.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

A good example of the REWARD that takes place where God "will RENDER to each one according to his deeds".

Both the good (and the wicked who are at that time.

But our topic is the time of the judgment. And Dan 7 says that WHILE that judgment is taking place the wicked are overpowering the saints. It is not until that judgment is complete the the wicked no longer have that ability according to Dan 7 that is when Christ appears for "wrath" in the case of the wicked.

Again - Dan 7 seems to be in your blind spot.

There is no blindspot in Daniel 7.

You seem to have one there.

You seem to pretend the entire first part of the chapter is not there

Not true. Rather I know that Dan 7 says that WHILE the judgment is going on the saints are being tormented by the wicked. (you are still avoiding this detail)

Your own confusion is not my problem.

Dan 7 appears to be your problem.

Rom 2 tells us that there IS a day of wrath..
Rom 2 tells us the method they use to determine saint vs wicked
Rom 2 tells us that there WILL BE a day that God judges.

But you conflate them all together as one thing and then have nothing but contradictions for Dan 7. ... so yeah -- your blind spot again.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you cited the whole passage, and there very much is a day of wrath mentioned:

Not in vs 16 where he speaks of the future day when Christ will judge the secrets of all.

You are conflating two verses in that chapter and you end up having to ignore the Dan 7 fact that WHILE the saints are being judged the wicked are tormenting the saints.

 

[BobRyan]

If you meant Daniel 7 shows the judgment going on while the saints are being persecuted--of course. It shows God judging the nations,

Dan 7 does not say "judging the nations" - it says "Judgment is passed in favor of THE SAINTS" vs 22. It is the saints that are being judged (not condemned but rather having their cases in review out books opened in Dan 7:9-10). The wicked in Dan 7 are never "in doubt" as to their wickedness. Rom 3:23 makes a statement about that as well.

You don't have any room at all for the Dan 7 fact that saints are being persecuted WHILE the judgment of Dan 7 is taking place. No wonder you are avoiding the thread that is all about that 'inconvenient' Bible detail.

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

This thread is about Mark 1:15 and Dan 9 pointing to the start of Christ's ministry after 483 years of the 490 year timeline in Dan 9. You already claimed to believe the 70weeks of Dan 9 are 490 years and they point to the Mark 1:15 point when the 483 year segment of that 490 years is completed.

But the thread link above is about Dan 7 and the IJ showing that WHiLE the judgment is going on - the saints are being persecuted by the wicked.

 

[tall73]

Now, many people make the argument that the Investigative Judgement was put forward as a means of explaining the lack of Christ’s appearance when the Great Disappointment occurred.

Yes, it was a later rationalization.

They first, as I noted earlier in the thread, had the wrong idea of the sanctuary, thinking it was the earth, and that Jesus would cleanse it with fire at His coming. Then the disappointment happened, and they had to re-study.

Then they realized that Hebrews references the heavenly sanctuary. You would think they would have already noticed this. They decided that in 1844 Jesus did not return to earth but instead for the first time went into the Most Holy Place to begin the Day of Atonement. They expected this time to be relatively short.

The aspect of the investigative judgment was not immediately held. Some began to propose that there would be an investigation of all cases prior to the resurrection of the righteous. But this took a while to be accepted. In fact, here is a statement in which James White was rejecting this notion in 1847.

James White's and Joseph Bates' writings in book: 'A Word to the Little Flock'

It is not necessary that the final sentence should be given before the first resurrection, as some have taught; for the names of the saints are written in heaven, and Jesus, and the angels will certainly know who to raise, and gather to the New Jerusalem.
-------

An investigative judgment from books on individual cases is not part of the work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. But it was a way to explain why it was taking so long.

 

[tall73]

Rom 2 tells us that there WILL BE a day that God judges.

And While you have ignored it again and again the following text specifies when that day is.


1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

When Jesus comes is when He judges the purposes of the heart.

But you conflate them all together as one thing and then have nothing but contradictions for Dan 7. ... so yeah -- your blind spot again.

You conflate the judgment on the beasts, the little horn, and in favor of the saints with your made up Adventist pre-advent judgment on only the professed followers of God in absentia.

But the time of the judgment of individuals, and the revealing of the secret of men's hearts is at Jesus' coming.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

 

[tall73]

Not in vs 16 where he speaks of the future day when Christ will judge the secrets of all.

You are conflating two verses in that chapter

You cited the whole section, so I responded to the whole section. Then you tried to say one of them didn't mention the other--ignoring that you cited the whole section.

And there is no conflation. The judgment of men's hearts happens at Jesus coming:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

The secrets are revealed AND The commendation given from God at the same time--at Jesus' coming.

 

[tall73]

Dan 7 does not say "judging the nations"

The judgment removes the authority of the beasts, which even you acknowledge are nations.

It judges the little horn, destroying him.

And it gives judgment in favor of the saints who were being persecuted by the little horn. You want to ignore the judgment of the beasts, which are nations, because it doesn't fit the Adventist mad-up IJ--which is only on professed believers.

The wicked in Dan 7 are never "in doubt" as to their wickedness.

The saints are not in doubt of their saint-hood either, as they are called saints in the explanation before the judgment sits.

Yet God judges these beast powers. He is sovereign over them, and His kingdom will last forever. He removes their authority, which was derived. And he grants relief to his saints, rendering judgment in their favor, who were already seen to be saints.

No wonder you are avoiding the thread

I don't feel the need to go post in your new thread that you made because you finally realized you made your first thread too complicated. We already started the discussion here.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, it was a later rationalization.

That's what atheists say about the Christian church disciples speaking of the resurrection after that public crucifixion.
A pretty old argument - we have seen that before.

They first, as I noted earlier in the thread, had the wrong idea of the sanctuary,

The millerites were not Seventh-day Adventists - they had a number of doctrinal differences with us -- I supposed we both knew that.

Then they realized that Hebrews references the heavenly sanctuary.

Indeed as Heb 8:1-4 points out. I have a thread for you that topic -

Adventists Affirm Dan 8:14, Lev 16 Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, Judgment

Dan 8:14 references the cleansing of the Sanctuary Dan 7 and Dan 8 - both deal with the problem of "the little horn" persecuting the saints. In Dan 7 the solution is the pre-advent judgment (according to the chapter). You can discuss those details for Dan 7 on the following thread...

www.christianforums.com

I am sure you will enjoy it - and it is not on this Mark 1:15 topic.

An investigative judgment from books on individual cases is not part of the work of the high priest

Maybe you need to study Dan 7 to see An investigative judgment from books on individual cases
And then "notice" the thread i just posted above that explains all of that for you.

 

[BobRyan]

You conflate the judgment on the beasts, the little horn, and in favor of the saints with your made up Adventist pre-advent judgment

You continue to strictly avoid the the text of Dan 7 to make that accusation.

Try reading the chapter.

IN fact here is an entire thread on that point...

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

Its all about the Dan 7 verses you are not quoting since none of them says "judgment on beasts"

Your argument is "with the text" -- that thread explains it.

 

[BobRyan]

The judgment removes the authority of the beasts, which even you acknowledge are nations.

The Dan 7 text you are avoiding says judgment "is passed in favor of the saints".

The very detail your suggestions so far - need to avoid.

The Dan 7 text (in fact that entire thread) points to the details you are skimming past in Dan 7.

The saints are not in doubt of their saint-hood

Matt 7 says many claim to "not be in doubt of their sainthood" at the end of time. Have you read it?
Rom 3:23 says "all have sinned" - that is the part that is not 'in doubt' in the courts of heaven.

I don't feel the need to go post in your new thread

Because it is specifically on Dan 7 - and that is the blind spot in your suggestions so far?
Hmmm how "surprising"

that you made because you finally realized you made your first thread too complicated.

I like having that Dan 7 discussion on "page 1" rather than buried four pages deep in the 80th post.
I prefer that each of these 3 key points be readily available for the unbiased objective readers - because I want them to see what you have skimmed over in the suggestions you keep making.

Nothing like having "the answer" stand out in bold type right on the forum list of topics.