Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

[Eila]

Well then you don't believe in this: "I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me".

I'm not sure why you say that. I certainly do believe that, but that text is not about keeping the law. It is about facing circumstances in life. We can do and face all circumstances in life when we are in Him. No person is righteous. The ONLY way you can be righteous is to accept His righteousness. When you have His right-standing He changes you and your actions change to reflect the righteous person you already are.

"
12I know how to be abased and live humbly in straitened circumstances, and I know also how to enjoy plenty and live in abundance. I have learned in any and all circumstances the secret of facing every situation, whether well-fed or going hungry, having a sufficiency and enough to spare or going without and being in want.
13I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me [I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him Who [g]infuses inner strength into me; I am [h]self-sufficient in Christ's sufficiency]."

Also, in this text we see that it is Christ in us who empowers us to face the circumstances in life. How can we do anything as a born-again believer - because we have Christ in us.

Romans 8 "9But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God].(C)
10But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you]."

 

[Eila]

Some Adventists don't think about these issues much at all, except for the occasional EGW comment that comes up, usually during Sabbath School. I was raised in a family that didn't put much emphasis at all on EGW. We owned some of her books, but my family didn't follow her counsels very strictly. I didn't have much of an opinion of her one way or the other until I started reading her writings when I was in college.

Some Adventists who don't believe that Ellen White was a prophet do view her as just another Christian writer who had some good and maybe even inspiring things to say. They glean what they can from her and disregard whatever they believe contradicts the Bible. On the other hand, some don't see any value in her writings at all because they feel that there are too many errors and contradictions and false prophecies that could lead them to misinterpret the Bible.

[FONT=&quot]Most Adventists who have rejected her as a prophet view her as a sincere Christian woman who was just misguided (for whatever reason, and there are plenty of theories floating around online) into believing that she was a prophet. I think you'll find the same range of views on this within the church as you do outside Adventism. I've talked to people who have never been Adventists who like to read her books because they have some good things in them, but they just don't see them as inspired. Others don’t want anything to do with them.
[/FONT]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge here Am I incorrect to assume that one has to accept EGW as a prophet to be baptized?

 

[Sophia7]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge here Am I incorrect to assume that one has to accept EGW as a prophet to be baptized?

That's kind of a tricky question. In some ways it depends on how the pastor presents it and what he requires of people. Some pastors ask people to affirm all of the fundamental beliefs before baptism, sometimes publicly and sometimes privately. They are all listed on the baptismal certificate (which is different now than when I was baptized), along with a shorter list of baptismal vows, including a catch-all affirmation of the fundamental teachings of the Adventist Church.

So technically, yes, they do have to accept EGW as a prophet in order to become a member of the SDA Church. However, in reality that often isn't the case. I know several people who didn't accept all 28 fundamentals when they were baptized. Often people do agree while studying initially and then change their minds later after studying further. When I was preparing for baptism, I was never asked if I agreed with all of the church's teachings (though I did at the time). I think the pastor just assumed that I did because I had been raised in the church and had just gone through a Revelation Seminar.

My personal opinion is that we shouldn't require affirmation of a creed (which the 28 fundamentals are, in effect) when we baptize people. They didn't in the New Testament. On the other hand, if people want to join the Adventist Church, they should understand fully what they are getting into.

 

[freeindeed2]

I don't consider it a "work" to trust. Nor do I think that my decision to trust undermine the grace of Christ or somehow indictates that I am trying to save myself. Salvation is only possible through Christ, but we accept that salvation in my view.

Do you think that if Christ had not given you faith in the first place you would seek out Jesus for salvation? In your human nature, which is set against God, do you have the 'natural' tendency to trust God, or is that something that he does in you through the Spirit?

 

[Eila]

Do you think that if Christ had not given you faith in the first place you would seek out Jesus for salvation? In your human nature, which is set against God, do you have the 'natural' tendency to trust God, or is that something that he does in you through the Spirit?

I see what you are saying here and I agree with you partly. I believe when we hear the Word of God the Holy Spirit works on our heart. If you are saying that God discriminates which person will receive faith and which one will not then I disagree with you.

The Bible says the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Romans 10 expresses this well I think "9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[f] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”[g]

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[h]
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”[i]

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”[j] 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Faith comes when the good news of Jesus is shared. Romans 1 says "16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”"

The good news of what Jesus has done is what stirs up faith. The Holy Spirit is working through you when you preach the Gospel and working in the hearts of the listeners. So yes I agree that faith comes from God, yet man must accept this gift and respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Adventtruth]

I see what you are saying here and I agree with you partly. I believe when we hear the Word of God the Holy Spirit works on our heart. If you are saying that God discriminates which person will receive faith and which one will not then I disagree with you.

The Bible says the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Romans 10 expresses this well I think "9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[f] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”[g]

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[h]
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”[i]

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”[j] 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Faith comes when the good news of Jesus is shared. Romans 1 says "16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”"

The good news of what Jesus has done is what stirs up faith. The Holy Spirit is working through you when you preach the Gospel and working in the hearts of the listeners. So yes I agree that faith comes from God, yet man must accept this gift and respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

If you are saying that God discriminates which person will receive faith and which one will not then I disagree with you.

But where did he make such a claim? I don't see him saying that. All he is saying is that faith is a gift aswell.

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Actually, that's incorrect. The IJ doctrine was understood completely by SDAs after they studied and understood the sanctuary after the 1844's great disappointment. The SDA's sanctuary doctrine is unique and far more complete and complex of any denominations.

Actually the IJ doctrine is far from being biblical.

Romans 8:1 (KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.



AT

 

[Jimlarmore]

Then you do NOT believe we are saved by grace (alone), through faith (alone), and not by works, because you believe that you are involved with saving yourself.

I can't give anything, I cannot surrender (for sure 100%), and I can't take up my cross. He does all of these things for/through/in (even in spite of) me! I trust in Jesus Christ to save me 100% (And no, the trust I place in him was his gift to me too! I didn't trust him before he came and rescued me!)

Then everyone should be saved and we are no longer in possession of free wills at all. Your philsophy is in direct opposition to the truth in the Bible. The entire Bible is based on us making a choice to choose life and not death. According to you we don't even do that. This is the foundation of the apostacy of this movement of yours. I've been baptist and this is nothing more than what they believe which is once saved always saved.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

I know of many Adventists who do not accept EGW as a prophet yet remain Adventists. Many also disagree with other traditional Adventist beliefs but still consider themselves Adventists. In fact, we have a Progressive SDA subforum in our congregational area to accommodate those who do not accept all 28 fundamental beliefs. I don't consider myself a very traditional Adventist on many issues. And, yes, you will hear varying opinions on EGW here and even in the Adventist forum itself.

We even have adventists who don't accept the literal account of most of the Bible at all and believe in evolution. Now that's hard for me to accept.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

How do you give back the gift of salvation? Deny Christ and turn your back on Him forever. Does that happen? Maybe, but if it does it is rare.

What does it mean exactly to deny Christ? What does it mean exactly to turn your back on the Lord Jesus Christ? Give me some real life scenarios or examples of what this would look like in real life.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

I'm not sure why you say that. I certainly do believe that, but that text is not about keeping the law. It is about facing circumstances in life. We can do and face all circumstances in life when we are in Him. No person is righteous. The ONLY way you can be righteous is to accept His righteousness. When you have His right-standing He changes you and your actions change to reflect the righteous person you already are.

Then obviously observing God's holy day and keeping the law is not in your opinion facing the circumstances in life is that it? You see how you are backing yourself in a corner here? Additionally, you are not making any sense either.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

I see what you are saying here and I agree with you partly. I believe when we hear the Word of God the Holy Spirit works on our heart. If you are saying that God discriminates which person will receive faith and which one will not then I disagree with you.

I think we agree.

Faith is a gift given to ALL, without discrimination. Some use it to trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation, others use it to trust in themsleves. Even our response is a result of the Holy Spirit doing his work in us.

The Bible says the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Romans 10 expresses this well I think "9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[f] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”[g]

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[h]
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”[i]

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”[j] 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Faith comes when the good news of Jesus is shared. Romans 1 says "16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”"

The good news of what Jesus has done is what stirs up faith. The Holy Spirit is working through you when you preach the Gospel and working in the hearts of the listeners. So yes I agree that faith comes from God, yet man must accept this gift and respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

 

[freeindeed2]

Then everyone should be saved and we are no longer in possession of free wills at all. Your philsophy is in direct opposition to the truth in the Bible. The entire Bible is based on us making a choice to choose life and not death. According to you we don't even do that. This is the foundation of the apostacy of this movement of yours. I've been baptist and this is nothing more than what they believe which is once saved always saved.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

If a complete reliance on Jesus Christ to save me because of what HE has done, and NOT because of what I do is 'apostacy' in your book, then count me in. Jesus is righteousness for me and I am 100% dependent on him to save me.

SDAism teaches a combination of righteousness by works and righteousness by faith. It's a 'do-it-yourself' philosophy that teaches you must rely on your own works or abilities to 'do' something. IOW, you are a contributor to your own salvation, or you can, in part, save yourself. I was in that for 35 years. It is NOT the truth the Bible teaches.

 

[Eila]

What does it mean exactly to deny Christ? What does it mean exactly to turn your back on the Lord Jesus Christ? Give me some real life scenarios or examples of what this would look like in real life.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

To deny Christ, turn your back on God? To no longer believe in God, to no longer accept Jesus as your Savior, curse God and want nothing more to do with Him

I cannot say what this "looks" like in real life because these things are in the heart. The outward actions are not always a good indicator as to what is happening inside. Man looks at the outward actions, but God looks at the heart. So only God knows what this looks like in real life.

 

[Jimlarmore]

If a complete reliance on Jesus Christ to save me because of what HE has done, and NOT because of what I do is 'apostacy' in your book, then count me in. Jesus is righteousness for me and I am 100% dependent on him to save me.

I am too but I know that it takes some actions from me as well to make the plan of salvation work. God doesn't force salvation, it is a gift that must be received. Receiving it takes work on our part. If it was like you say then we wouldn't even have to confess our sins or repent of them. Both of these works are involved in the plan of salvation clearly taught in the Bible.

The apostacy your philosophy embraces comes in when you take the sinner totally out of the equation in having anything to do at all in salvation. What happens when you do that is you take away free will as well.

SDAism teaches a combination of righteousness by works and righteousness by faith. It's a 'do-it-yourself' philosophy that teaches you must rely on your own works or abilities to 'do' something. IOW, you are a contributor to your own salvation, or you can, in part, save yourself. I was in that for 35 years. It is NOT the truth the Bible teaches.

Wrong again, you can't have real faith without some works. The act of submitting to the the Holy Spirit is a work in and of itself. The Bible says faith without works is dead. So that makes your version of faith a dead and useless modality. Take all of the Bible my friend not just the parts that seems to say what you desparately want them to say.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Eila]

I think we agree.

Faith is a gift given to ALL, without discrimination. Some use it to trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation, others use it to trust in themsleves. Even our response is a result of the Holy Spirit doing his work in us.

I see, then we do agree here

 

[OntheDL]

I'm not sure why you say that. I certainly do believe that, but that text is not about keeping the law. It is about facing circumstances in life. We can do and face all circumstances in life when we are in Him. No person is righteous. The ONLY way you can be righteous is to accept His righteousness. When you have His right-standing He changes you and your actions change to reflect the righteous person you already are.

"
12I know how to be abased and live humbly in straitened circumstances, and I know also how to enjoy plenty and live in abundance. I have learned in any and all circumstances the secret of facing every situation, whether well-fed or going hungry, having a sufficiency and enough to spare or going without and being in want.
13I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me [I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him Who [g]infuses inner strength into me; I am [h]self-sufficient in Christ's sufficiency]."

Also, in this text we see that it is Christ in us who empowers us to face the circumstances in life. How can we do anything as a born-again believer - because we have Christ in us.

Romans 8 "9But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God].(C)
10But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you]."

You said it's impossible to keep the all the commandments. But the plain bible text says 'I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me'. Don't try to give your own interpretation. Just accept what it says plainly. That includes having victory over sin with His help. That's one of the reasons why Jesus came to this earth, to set an example.

That's basic and central theme of the bible. And it's the essense of the gospel.

It's the devil's argument that the laws are impossible to be kept.

 

[Eila]

Then obviously observing God's holy day and keeping the law is not in your opinion facing the circumstances in life is that it? You see how you are backing yourself in a corner here? Additionally, you are not making any sense either.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

No, I don't see how I am backing myself into a corner. Observing the Sabbath like you practice is the same as wearing tassels on your clothes to me. The Sabbath (as you practice it) is not a circumstance in the life of a new covenant believer any more than wearing tassels on your coat is.

 

[Eila]

You said it's impossible to keep the all the commandments. But the plain bible text says 'I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me'. Don't try to give your own interpretation. Just accept what it says plainly. That includes having victory over sin with His help. That's one of the reasons why Jesus came to this earth, to set an example.

We already have the victory over sin. You have a definition of sin that includes halfway keeping the Sabbath. I understand how you view the text, but from the context you cannot say that it is about law keeping especially when there are so many versus saying the law is complete/finished/fulfilled/at an end and we are no longer under the law.

That's basic and central theme of the bible. And it's the essense of the gospel.

No, no, no, no, no!!! Sorry for being so blunt. But the essense of the Gospel is not the example of Jesus!!!! The Gospel is what Jesus DID for us already.

It's the devil's argument that the laws are impossible to be kept.

If you are depending on your keeping of the law then you will fall short. Have you kept them perfectly? Have you ever been angry? Have you ever sinned?

Galatians 3 " 1O YOU poor and silly and thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless Galatians! Who has fascinated or bewitched or cast a spell over you, unto whom--right before your very eyes--Jesus Christ (the Messiah) was openly and graphically set forth and portrayed as crucified?
2Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the [Holy] Spirit as the result of obeying the Law and doing its works, or was it by hearing [the message of the Gospel] and believing [it]? [Was it from observing a law of rituals or from a message of faith?]
3Are you so foolish and so senseless and so silly? Having begun [your new life spiritually] with the [Holy] Spirit, are you now reaching perfection [by dependence] on the flesh?"

If you are depending on your actions to reach perfection you will fall short. Perfection is only attainable through accepting His perfection.

 

[Jimlarmore]

To deny Christ, turn your back on God? To no longer believe in God, to no longer accept Jesus as your Savior, curse God and want nothing more to do with Him

I cannot say what this "looks" like in real life because these things are in the heart. The outward actions are not always a good indicator as to what is happening inside. Man looks at the outward actions, but God looks at the heart. So only God knows what this looks like in real life.

I don't know if you realize it or not but when you said curse God you were speaking of an act of violation of the ten commandments. Also the act of not accepting Jesus Christ takes in idol worship as you are worshiping yourself to deny God His child and the plan of Salvation to work. You can't escape the truth dear sister no matter how you try to rationalize it.

God Bless
Jim Larmore