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Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

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Adventtruth

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The reason Jesus incarnated in a human form is because even that He suffers all our infirmities and was tempted in all ways, He committed no sin, leaving us an example.
Example means something you follow.

Where is your proof that this is the reason Jesus came in human form...to give us an example to follow him in sinlessness.

Of course the bible is about victory over sin. And when Jesus comes back and you are still sinning, you shall not enter into the promised city.

Once again can you kindly support this from the scriptures?

Did the Israelites who rebelled entered into the promised land after they had been saved by grace in Egypt? No.

The reason they entered not into the pomised land was because they did not have faith in God, not becasue of disobedience. Grace was there for the disobedience, but grace is not there for unbelief...God will not force us to believe, but He will forgive the disobedience.

Hebrews 4:6 (KJV) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Now as a nation of people who where under the law,their promised land was an earthly land not a heavenly one. The heavenly inheritance is always through faith, the earthly promise of land is always by works of obedience. The nation was promised the earthly land based upon perfect law keeping. But they did not believe. But keep in mind, the law could not make the promise of noneffect. The promise was made to Abraham and his seed...thus the individual under the law could still enter into the inheritance by faith. Some did such a Daniel.

Galatians 3:17-18 (KJV) 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

If you intend to do nothing, God is not going to do it for you because He's not unjust while letting others perish.

The majority of christianity teaches this cheap grace, that Jesus did it all for me, so I don't have to do anything. I don't have to keep the law, really it's the sabbath they are having problems with.

The truth of the matter is that justified believers are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. They are as a branch connected to a vine. The sap runs from the vine into the branch that it may produce fruit. If the branch which is connected to the vine does not produce fruit, it is broken off and burned. So justified believers will alway produce fruit.

By saying it's impossible to keep the law, you are saying the devil who wants you to break the law is stronger than Jesus who asks you to keep the law.

What makes it impossible for you or any one to keep the law is that we all have already broken the law. And if you have already broken it, then you need grace to restore you. I wish justified believers would understand this important truth. We can neer repay what we owe by our law keeping.

AT
 
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Adventtruth

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Oh I don't want to offend you or any. Am I'm sure you do not entend to offend either. But please kindly forgive me for doing so in the past.,,so we do have a deal:)

Now I was asking you to provide scripture that faith is not a gift.

Blessings

AT:)

Yes, the entire Bible AT is about God asking us to choose between life and death, righteousness and wickedness. We have a choice to live as we decide to live. There is a work for us to do in the plan of salvation. God does not force salvation on us, it takes a conscious effort and mental ascent to submit our will's to Him so His grace and love can save us . What you guys , or at least Freeindeed is saying, is that we don't even have a choice at all and nothing we do can contribute to our salvation.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

p.s. You and I have had some very heated discussion in the past. You've said some things that were offensive to me and I have said some things that has offended you. I wasn't going to respond to you ever again on the internet, but I re-thought that position with this condition. If you have a serious problem with what I have said how about sending me a pm instead of running to the mod's and trying to get me in trouble here? I'll do the same thing, I promise.

Deal?

God Bless again,
Jim Larmore
 
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Adventtruth

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OntheDL

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Only those who lift up the law try to make the distinctions/divisions in THE LAW you and others here do.


We are free to follow the Spirit instead of our sinful natures.

"7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. 8 That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.

9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)" Romans 8

I don't see those led by the Spirit being led to do the awful things you speak of. And to accuse those with the Spirit of God living IN them of being led to do those things is a big lie! Are you afraid of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead in your life? Or do you feel you do a better job by making efforts to keep the old covenant/10 commandments?

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
 
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Adventtruth

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What they are saying is that they don't have to worry about it because they are released from the regulations of the law. However, not to many of them would say it's ok to go and have an affair or rob a bank. So what is sin? That is what I have been trying to get them to say but they are spinning and side stepping around a direct answer.
I think Paul makes it clear sin is defined as the transgression of God's Holy law the ten commandments. The passages above are clear Paul is speaking of them as he says he wouldn't even know what sin was if it hadn't been for the law. The Bible thus makes it very clear what sin is in 1 John 3:4 , it's the transgression of the law of God.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jim, I can't speak for others but I don't worry about sinning. If I am about to do something that is not right, I have an inward witness that warns me. Its the witness of the Holy Spirit.

1 John 2:27 (KJV) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I have not side stepped the question. Sin is lawlessness, sin is what ever is not of faith, sin is being angry with you brother with out a cause, sin is not believing on Jesus, and many other things not contained in teh ten word. But as I have said a thousand times, Justified believers don't go around seeking to be in sin.

AT:)
 
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Adventtruth

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Was sabbath given at Sinai? How about adultery? Murder? So it wasn't sin to commit these before Mt. Sinai?


Her point was that all of it was of the bond woman. You seem to have a hard time understanding this simple truth.

AT
 
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Eila

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Was sabbath given at Sinai? How about adultery? Murder? So it wasn't sin to commit these before Mt. Sinai?

Romans 5 "13[To be sure] sin was in the world before ever the Law was given, but sin is not charged to men's account where there is no law [to transgress]."

e.g. Cain killed his brother and God would not let anyone kill him. Under the law wouldn't he deserve death?
 
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Eila

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Jim, I can't speak for others but I don't worry about sinning. If I am about to do something that is not right, I have an inward witness that warns me. Its the witness of the Holy Spirit.

1 John 2:27 (KJV) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I have not side stepped the question. Sin is lawlessness, sin is what ever is not of faith, sin is being angry with you brother with out a cause, sin is not believing on Jesus, and many other things not contained in teh ten word. But as I have said a thousand times, Justified believers don't go around seeking to be in sin.

AT:)


I so agree AT. The inward witness lets me know when I am doing something I shouldn't. Focusing on sin leads to more sin, imo. Focusing on our right-standing with Him leads to actions more like His.
 
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Eila

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Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.


Do you realize the context of the verse you quoted?

"19And when the people [instead of putting their trust in God] shall say to you, Consult for direction mediums and wizards who chirp and mutter, should not a people seek and consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
20[Direct such people] to the teaching and to the testimony! If their teachings are not in accord with this word, it is surely because there is no dawn and no morning for them.
21And they [who consult mediums and wizards] shall pass through [the land] sorely distressed and hungry; and when they are hungry, they will fret, and will curse by their king and their God; and whether they look upward"

It is actually talking about judging what mediums and wizards say. If they are not advising you according to God's ways then you shouldn't listen to them. I think we should do that with all teaching although I wouldn't have a medium or wizard teach me :)

Do you believe the Holy Spirit leads people and convicts of sin?
 
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OntheDL

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Do you realize the context of the verse you quoted?

"19And when the people [instead of putting their trust in God] shall say to you, Consult for direction mediums and wizards who chirp and mutter, should not a people seek and consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
20[Direct such people] to the teaching and to the testimony! If their teachings are not in accord with this word, it is surely because there is no dawn and no morning for them.
21And they [who consult mediums and wizards] shall pass through [the land] sorely distressed and hungry; and when they are hungry, they will fret, and will curse by their king and their God; and whether they look upward"

It is actually talking about judging what mediums and wizards say. If they are not advising you according to God's ways then you shouldn't listen to them. I think we should do that with all teaching although I wouldn't have a medium or wizard teach me :)

Do you believe the Holy Spirit leads people and convicts of sin?

It's actually a test of biblical truth. The law and the prophet are the whole bible.

Of course I do. But not those who don't believe it's possible to have victory over sin and their own sinful nature..
 
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Eila

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It's actually a test of biblical truth. The law and the prophet are the whole bible.

Of course I do. But not those who don't believe it's possible to have victory over sin and their own sinful nature..

The law and prophets are the Old Testament.

We already have the victory over sin and no longer have a sinful nature. We are probably coming at this from 2 different angles. I have victory over sin and no longer have a sinful nature because of what He already did, not because of what I can achieve.:clap: :clap:
 
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freeindeed2

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The law and prophets are the Old Testament.

We already have the victory over sin and no longer have a sinful nature. We are probably coming at this from 2 different angles. I have victory over sin and no longer have a sinful nature because of what He already did, not because of what I can achieve.:clap: :clap:
AMEN SISTER! Jesus has ALREADY given us 'overwhelming victory'!!!!!! It's not about us, but about Jesus. I wish the law-mongerers would start lifting up Jesus our salvation, rather than the law that condems.
 
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OntheDL

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The law and prophets are the Old Testament.
The law and prophets are whole Word of God. The NT books in large proportions (over 30% direct, indirect/ partial) are quotes of the OT.
We already have the victory over sin and no longer have a sinful nature. We are probably coming at this from 2 different angles. I have victory over sin and no longer have a sinful nature because of what He already did, not because of what I can achieve.:clap: :clap:

Right. He that overcomes and keep my works to the end the same is saved.
 
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Eila

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The law and prophets are whole Word of God. The NT books in large proportions (over 30% direct, indirect/ partial) are quotes of the OT.

So 70% of the NT books are not the Word of God?

Right. He that overcomes and keep my works to the end the same is saved.

So you don't believe you are saved now?
 
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OntheDL

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So 70% of the NT books are not the Word of God?
That's what you said, not me. I was just pointing out the commonly accepted facts.

So you don't believe you are saved now?

Your or my believes are irrelavant. Thus saith the Lord.

Rev 2
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Don't try again to put a spin on it. I'm done talking to you.
 
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freeindeed2

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The law and prophets are whole Word of God. The NT books in large proportions (over 30% direct, indirect/ partial) are quotes of the OT.
Jesus was the complete fulfillment of the law and the prophets. Jesus IS GOD'S FINAL WORD, and the exact representation of himself. Turn to Jesus, the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is salvation!


OntheDL said:
Right. He that overcomes and keep my works to the end the same is saved.
Uhhhh...keeps his WORKS???? Are you serious???? If That isn't righteousness by works, I don't know what is. Incredible!!!! You're saying we are saved by 'keeping his works'!!! WOW!!!

This is NOT righteousness by faith. It is 'another Gospel' than the one Paul preached. Readers BEWARE!!!!
 
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OntheDL

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Jesus was the complete fulfillment of the law and the prophets. Jesus IS GOD'S FINAL WORD, and the exact representation of himself. Turn to Jesus, the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is salvation!



Uhhhh...keeps his WORKS???? Are you serious???? If That isn't righteousness by works, I don't know what is. Incredible!!!! You're saying we are saved by 'keeping his works'!!! WOW!!!

This is NOT righteousness by faith. It is 'another Gospel' than the one Paul preached. Readers BEWARE!!!!
The spirit of the accuser! Read the bible text I quoted before you accuse someone. That's from Revelation 2. Are you saying those verses are not from God?

You only take the text that's convenient while ignoring the rest.
 
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