Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

[Eila]

The freedom that comes from responding to the true Gospel is indescribable. The burden that is taken away...the freedom of knowing that salvation is not up to us but up to Christ! Thank you for sharing. Most that I know wouldn't say they gave up on the Sabbath, but that they were led by the Holy Spirit. Most SDA's I know just cannot understand how the Holy Spirit could even lead someone OUT of the SDA church.

God bless!

Yes, Freeindeed2

I too found it so freeing. I had no idea that I was bound, until I was set free. I didn't feel bound, but when I was set free I knew that I had been bound. It was most certainly the Holy Spirit that led me. I dragged my feet some because it went so much against everything I ever believed. But He was patient with me and led me to enjoy freedom in Christ.

 

[Jon0388g]

There are many texts that point to how we will receive rewards for the works done while in the body like 2 Cor 5 "10For we must all appear and be revealed as we are before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive [his pay] according to what he has done in the body, whether good or evil [considering [c]what his purpose and motive have been, and what he has [d]achieved, been busy with, and given himself and his attention to accomplishing]"

Heaven is a gift. Our rewards relate to how we lived on earth.

In essence I agree with you. But you did not reply to the issue: Where do you get the temporary visit to Hades, and then transfer to Gehenna?

Just out of interest: When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, why would He recall Lazarus back from the bliss of heaven to this sin stained earth? Would this not risk Lazarus losing his salvation a second time (assuming you do not believe in OSAS)? Why did Lazarus not ask Jesus why He took Him away from paradise/tell people the wonders of paradise? Surely this would have been recorded......

Although we cannot discuss the issue of annihilation here, I will say this. When I read the Bible I took "forever" and "eternal" to mean what they say. God has nothing to prove to me. He is righteous and all-knowing.

Of course. I also take 'forever' and 'eternal' to mean just that.

But, your eyes are on the wrong word. You look at eternal, and conclude eternal punishing. I look at punishment, and conclude eternal punishment. There is a difference.

Take a look at Jude 7. Sodom and Gomorrah are cities which are 'an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.' Is the fire still burning? Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?

If you have trouble with accepting the Investigative Judgment based on it allegedly portraying God in a negative light, then I cannot see how in the world you would prefer to cling to a doctrine which suggests a god who gives mere man immortality, just so he can suffer excruciating pain for all time.

I don't think you can take one text and base your theology on it when so many other texts say "forever" or "eternal". Did you know that many people consider these texts to be talking about the time of Jesus because Elijah was to come right before that? If you consider that to be referring to the end of time then you should be keeping the entire law of Moses (see verse 4):

"1FOR BEHOLD, the day comes that shall burn like an oven, and all the proud and arrogant, yes, and all that do wickedly and are lawless, shall be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.(A)
2But unto you who revere and worshipfully fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in His wings and His beams, and you shall go forth and gambol like calves [released] from the stall and leap for joy.
3And you shall tread down the lawless and wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the Lord of hosts.
4[Earnestly] remember the law of Moses, My servant, the statutes and the ordinances which I commanded him on [Mount] Horeb [to give] to all Israel.
5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes."

Surely, you give me more credit than that.

Firstly, Malachi 4:1 says '..all the arrogant and evil-doer will be chaff...they will be ashes under the soles of your feet..' has this happened yet Eila?

Of course this applies to the time of the end. Indeed, vs 5 says that Elijah the prophet would come before that day. And, he has long come and gone, as John the Baptist. So, what's your point?

Jon

 

[tall73]

Rather than us getting into trouble I have made a thread for discussing hell here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t485...mer-adventists-discuss-hell.html#post32064467

 

[Eila]

If you have trouble with accepting the Investigative Judgment based on it allegedly portraying God in a negative light,

I'll answer this part here and the rest I'll answer in the new thread in the unorthodox section.

I don't have trouble accepting the IJ based on it portraying God in a negative light. Did I say that somewhere? I don't accept the IJ because it is not based on the Bible. It was a result of trying to make 1844 be something that it wasn't.

 

[OntheDL]

I'll answer this part here and the rest I'll answer in the new thread in the unorthodox section.

I don't have trouble accepting the IJ based on it portraying God in a negative light. Did I say that somewhere? I don't accept the IJ because it is not based on the Bible. It was a result of trying to make 1844 be something that it wasn't.

Why is this not based on the bible? Can you elaborate each issue the IJ addresses?

 

[Eila]

Why is this not based on the bible?

The only way you can come up with this is if you accept an extra Biblical source of authority and I do not.

Can you elaborate each issue the IJ addresses?

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[OntheDL]

I think we interpret this text differently. The former sins were the sins not under the blood of Jesus. He passed over and ignored the sins of generations of people without the punishment due to them. The blood of bulls and goats was not able to remove the sin. (Heb 10:4).

In Acts 17 "30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

The times of ignorance have passed and now all men everywhere should repent. The sins of the past were referring to before the sacrifice of Jesus.

The sins of ignorance are those you commit when you didn't know they were wrong.

Are you saying once you accept Jesus as your savior and confess your sins, but you commit those known sins, they are already forgiven, not counted against you?

I look at it a different way. If you are having problems with a sin it is because you are not understanding that Jesus already gave you the victory over that sin. We are free from the power of sin. If someone sins again and again I would say that they are either unware of their right-standing before God and that He has given them the victory or they are ignoring the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

I agree that we will all appear before the judgement seat of Christ. However, our salvation is not by works and this is not referring to our salvation here. Those who are saved have already passed from death to life.

It seems that you are saying you are already saved that your salvation has been sealed that nothing you do from now here can lose your salvation, is that correct?

I do thing that every OC person should have kept the commandments, but no one was able to.

I'm not sure what you meant here. Are you saying no one is able or it's impossible to keep the commandments?

Those referred to here are ones who Jesus never knew. These were not born again.

How do we know they were not born again? By not doing the will of the Father, right?

There is a discrepancy in the translation of Rev 22:14 - some versions say "do his commandments" and others say "wash their robes". Either way, the commandments given are to believe on Jesus and to love one another. No man can have right to the tree of life without Jesus.

Which versions say 'wash their robes' in Rev 22:14?

 

[OntheDL]

The only way you can come up with this is if you accept an extra Biblical source of authority and I do not.

I'm not sure what you mean.

IJ is a key issue in Adventism. It's fairly complex.

You said 'I don't accept the IJ because it is not based on the Bible. It was a result of trying to make 1844 be something that it wasn't.'

If that's the case, I want to hear your reasonings from the bible to address each issue IJ touches on.

 

[Eila]

IJ is a key issue in Adventism. It's fairly complex.

You said 'I don't accept the IJ because it is not based on the Bible. It was a result of trying to make 1844 be something that it wasn't.'

If that's the case, I want to hear your reasonings from the bible to address each issue IJ touches on.

I guess you need to be more specific. What are the issues that the IJ touches on that you want me to address?

 

[Sophia7]

Which versions say 'wash their robes' in Rev 22:14?

Any that are not based on the Textus Receptus.

 

[OntheDL]

I guess you need to be more specific. What are the issues that the IJ touches on that you want me to address?

Like I said, all the key issues please.

 

[Eila]

Are you saying once you accept Jesus as your savior and confess your sins, but you commit those known sins, they are already forgiven, not counted against you?

Yes, they are already forgiven. Asking forgiveness for them is for my benefit only.

It seems that you are saying you are already saved that your salvation has been sealed that nothing you do from now here can lose your salvation, is that correct?

Almost. I am not OSAS. We can choose to give back the gift and walk away from God forever. My works do not lose me my salvation.

I'm not sure what you meant here. Are you saying no one is able or it's impossible to keep the commandments?

Yes, it is impossible for anyone to keep the commandments as Jesus described them.

How do we know they were not born again? By not doing the will of the Father, right?

We, as humans, judge the outward actions, but we cannot judge anyone's salvation. Only God knows the heart.

Which versions say 'wash their robes' in Rev 22:14?

NASB, GWT, ASV, BBE, DBY, WEY, NIV, AMP. There may be more, but those are the ones I saw when I briefly looked.

 

[Eila]

Like I said, all the key issues please.

If you want me to address something specific I will. However, it is a waste of time for me to go over everything in detail regarding the IJ. I'm not trying to convince you of my position. I was just explaining my viewpoint. I do not agree that is it Biblically based.

 

[Jimlarmore]

This post is deleted because it discusses annihilation of the soul. I clicked on the link Tall73 gave and posted on it and this post showed up here. What forum is the new link in Tal73?

God Bles
Jim Larmore

 

[tall73]

Rather than us getting into trouble I have made a thread for discussing hell here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t4853...l#post32064467

 

[tall73]

This post is deleted because it discusses annihilation of the soul. I clicked on the link Tall73 gave and posted on it and this post showed up here. What forum is the new link in Tal73?

God Bles
Jim Larmore

It is in unorthodox theology. That and liberal theology are the only areas we are allowed to discuss it. We are certainly not liberal, so this seemed best

 

[OntheDL]

If you want me to address something specific I will. However, it is a waste of time for me to go over everything in detail regarding the IJ. I'm not trying to convince you of my position. I was just explaining my viewpoint. I do not agree that is it Biblically based.

How is it a waste of time to discuss one of the most important doctrines of Adventism since this thread is for dialog between Adventists and former ones?

IJ is a complex doctrine. Its entirety is rarely taught to the adventist people. The majority of the members don't know the ins-and-outs of it.

I wanted to know if you have considered all the aspects of it and to be able to identify some key areas. So it'd help me to know how well you know this subject to know how much or how deep we will want to go into it.

 

[freeindeed2]

How is it a waste of time to discuss one of the most important doctrines of Adventism since this thread is for dialog between Adventists and former ones?

IJ is a complex doctrine. Its entirety is rarely taught to the adventist people. The majority of the members don't know the ins-and-outs of it.

I wanted to know if you have considered all the aspects of it and to be able to identify some key areas. So it'd help me to know how well you know this subject to know how much or how deep we will want to go into it.

You're right! In fact, it's the ONLY unique doctrine to Seventh day Adventism! All one has to do is go back to the beginning of how the doctrine was established and take it from there. It has become extremely complex and complicated since the first vision of it on October 23, 1844. It's an onion with so many layers that it gets very confusing trying to understand it (which is no accident!).

ALL SDA's need to understand how the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment was arrived at. Many would be shocked to discover it's roots. They should go all the way back to William Miller's 15 proofs for the second coming and REALLY understand what he used to try and prove Christ was coming! Many thinking individuals would be shocked at how flimsy the 'proofs' are. But they are the same EXACT basis for arriving at the Investigative Judgment! HUGE assumptions were made that most SDA theologians today would scoff at. Miller was no theologian, but a farmer. And he was wrong!

I would challenge any SDA to go back to the beginning and work from there. After 160 plus years of trying to make the Bible fit into the IJ, it is extremely complicated to peel back the layers of the SDA onion. But it's quite easy to understand it from the beginning. Check it out! After all, SDA's are the ONLY one's who believe it and they came up with it! Nobody else accepts it. You owe it to yourself to discover how it all came about!

 

[Eila]

How is it a waste of time to discuss one of the most important doctrines of Adventism since this thread is for dialog between Adventists and former ones?

IJ is a complex doctrine. Its entirety is rarely taught to the adventist people. The majority of the members don't know the ins-and-outs of it.

I wanted to know if you have considered all the aspects of it and to be able to identify some key areas. So it'd help me to know how well you know this subject to know how much or how deep we will want to go into it.

So you are testing me to see if I understand what the IJ is about? It is not a waste of time to discuss something, but it is a waste of time for me to write and write and write and write and give support and more support when I know full well that you are going to dismiss everything I write. I did not accept the IJ as it was taught even when I was an Adventist so I can hardly agree with you that it is a "most important doctrine of Adventism".

Here is a brief synopsis of the IJ from my perspective:

When Jesus didn't return in 1844 some people had to make sense of this date. Most people assumed that they were wrong and went back to their former lives. The IJ came about because of the great disappointment and trying to figure out what that date could mean.

Jesus supposedly entered the last phase of his atoning ministry in 1844. This right here is enough for me to say it is not Biblical. Jesus atonement was complete when He sent His Spirit on Pentecost.

It also has Jesus judging the dead and the living to decide their final destination. I believe that our final destination is decided while we are on earth.

During the investigate judgement Jesus looks at your works and based on that your eternal destination is decided. If you are alive and your name comes up and you have unconfessed sin in the book then that is too bad for you. Also, at that time if you do not have unconfessed sin in the book the sins are erased at that time. In other words you cannot have any eternal security whatsoever if you hold to the IJ. This is purely salvation by works.

Also, the IJ theme is that God is on trial and that He must be vindicated before the world. God has nothing to prove to anyone. He is not on trial.

Did you ever wonder why it is taking sooo long for Jesus to go through all the names?

 

[OntheDL]

So you are testing me to see if I understand what the IJ is about? It is not a waste of time to discuss something, but it is a waste of time for me to write and write and write and write and give support and more support when I know full well that you are going to dismiss everything I write. I did not accept the IJ as it was taught even when I was an Adventist so I can hardly agree with you that it is a "most important doctrine of Adventism".

How do you presume I'm just going to dismiss what you say? Have I not tried to provide scriptural references in our discussion so far?

I said IJ is a key issue in Adventism. The denomination is founded on the understanding of this doctrine.

Here is a brief synopsis of the IJ from my perspective:

When Jesus didn't return in 1844 some people had to make sense of this date. Most people assumed that they were wrong and went back to their former lives. The IJ came about because of the great disappointment and trying to figure out what that date could mean.

Jesus supposedly entered the last phase of his atoning ministry in 1844. This right here is enough for me to say it is not Biblical. Jesus atonement was complete when He sent His Spirit on Pentecost.

I have posted many times on atonement. But in case you haven't seen it, atonement means to restore the original condition: the face to face relationship between man and God. That relationship is not restored until His second coming to receive the believers back to heaven.

Rev 16:17 & 21:6 both declares 'It is done' just prior to Christ's return. Have you considered maybe that is the completion of the atonement?

It also has Jesus judging the dead and the living to decide their final destination. I believe that our final destination is decided while we are on earth.

During the investigate judgement Jesus looks at your works and based on that your eternal destination is decided. If you are alive and your name comes up and you have unconfessed sin in the book then that is too bad for you. Also, at that time if you do not have unconfessed sin in the book the sins are erased at that time. In other words you cannot have any eternal security whatsoever if you hold to the IJ. This is purely salvation by works.

Also, the IJ theme is that God is on trial and that He must be vindicated before the world. God has nothing to prove to anyone. He is not on trial.

Ok, I saw some of your previous posts on these.

Did you ever wonder why it is taking sooo long for Jesus to go through all the names?

Have you thought about the possibility maybe Jesus is waiting for that last soul that possibly could be saved? He's waiting to save as many as possible. But one day He will say enough is enough.