Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

[Sophia7]

I never said justification and sanctification are of our own works. Have you been following the sanctuary study? Who took off Aaron's clothes and washed his body and his sons'?

However God will not force these things on us if we do not make a decision to be clean and invite Him to cleanse us.

Sorry about the edit of your post. I accidentally hit the wrong button when I was trying to reply. I think it's been properly restored.

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify because you made it sound in your previous post as if we have to cleanse ourselves.

 

[Eila]

Examples of this is all around us every day Eila. I've seen it a hundred times. A person comes to Christ and is on fire for a while then they slip away slowly back into the world again. It can happen to any of us and it's a natural thing to do. We have to die daily to our old lives to keep Christ in our hearts. I have lived this in my own life more than once and I can tell you that sin is what takes us away from Christ. If you are knowingly breaking God's ten commandment law you are comitting sin , it's that simple.

The only way a sin is not imputed to us is if we are daily surrendering our lives to Christ and letting Him and His power transform us and cover that sin with His righteousness after we confesss and repent of it. When we sin and make it a practice in our lives then that is what turning our backs on the Lord is all about. Your side of this discussion says that no externals matter but that is licensciousness or saying it's ok to sin ,don't worry about it cause we can't stop sinning anyway. That's what the devil wants, he's such a genious in this, he's taken the very grace of Christ and led folks right back into sin. What's sad is many don't even see it because they have been sold a false idea or philosophy

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Romans 6 speaks to this issue well "
14For sin shall not [any longer] exert dominion over you, since now you are not under Law [as slaves], but under grace [as subjects of God's favor and mercy].
15What then [are we to conclude]? Shall we sin because we live not under Law but under God's favor and mercy? Certainly not!
16Do you not know that if you continually surrender yourselves to anyone to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey, whether that be to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience which leads to righteousness (right doing and right standing with God)?
17But thank God, though you were once slaves of sin, you have become obedient with all your heart to the standard of teaching in which you were instructed and to which you were committed.
18And having been set free from sin, you have become the servants of righteousness (of conformity to the divine will in thought, purpose, and action)."

We are free from the law and all its regulations. We are free to live for Him. Some squandor that freedom and their share in the reward seat of Christ will show that.

 

[Sophia7]

I agree wholeheartedly, but we still have our part to do in the plan of salvation. The act of submitting to the Holy Spirit alone is a work in and of itself and initiates the justification process. Sanctification comes as a result of a daily walk which is a commensal union between His power and our willingness to let Him make us Holy. Christ comes to reward us for our works, and faith with out works is dead.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

My disagreement with this is that I believe that God initiates the process of justification and sanctification. We wouldn't even be able to submit to the Holy Spirit without the gift of faith that comes from God.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Romans 6 speaks to this issue well "
14For sin shall not [any longer] exert dominion over you, since now you are not under Law [as slaves], but under grace [as subjects of God's favor and mercy].
15What then [are we to conclude]? Shall we sin because we live not under Law but under God's favor and mercy? Certainly not!
16Do you not know that if you continually surrender yourselves to anyone to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey, whether that be to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience which leads to righteousness (right doing and right standing with God)?
17But thank God, though you were once slaves of sin, you have become obedient with all your heart to the standard of teaching in which you were instructed and to which you were committed.
18And having been set free from sin, you have become the servants of righteousness (of conformity to the divine will in thought, purpose, and action)."

We are free from the law and all its regulations. We are free to live for Him. Some squandor that freedom and their share in the reward seat of Christ will show that.

The part you bolded above shows that sin is possible after being saved so we are not released from the regulations of the law which defines what sin is to start with 1 John 3:4. I have never said we were under the law to save us. That has never been the case. Salvation has always been by the grace of God even in Old Testament times.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

My disagreement with this is that I believe that God initiates the process of justification and sanctification. We wouldn't even be able to submit to the Holy Spirit without the gift of faith that comes from God.

True again but as with any gift you have to be willing to receive it to make it work and benefit the life. God doesn't force us to be willing but gently calls us. There are millions who know fully what this gift is but refuse it outright or ignore it's calling. This takes an act on our part either way and it takes a work on our part to keep faith and grace going and working in our lives. I don't recommend this but stop having daily devotions and prayer of any kind for a few days and see how it effects you spiritually. Imagine this for many many days , months or years.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[OntheDL]

In this post you said "when Jesus comes back and you are still sinning, you shall not enter the promised city." How is that not salvation by works?

Then are you saying the bible teaches salvation by work with the following statements?

"not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter into heaven except for those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven".

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Then is the bible saying we are saved by keeping the law by our own power. No, by His power.

Can you turn the steer wheel of a 10 ton Mach truck without power steering? Not a chance. But with the power steering, you can now turn it with ease. But power steering would not turn the truck for you if you don't first give the steering input.

That is the difference!

The reason Jesus came was to bring us back to God.

Colossians 1 "19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross"

We ARE reconciled back to God. Acting perfect has nothing to do with this reconciliation.
"17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

He became sin for us so that we could have His right-standing!!

You did not answer the question why He came in a human flesh. The verses you quoted tell us exactly why shouldn't sin: by God's creative power that renews us. If we are born-again truly, we do not sin.

What if you die today? Are you still sinning? Are you perfect in your actions?

Let me see if the bible says you should look at my example... I think 1 Peter 2 says Jesus who committed no sin left an example for you. It's flattering that you are looking at me , but shouldn't you be looking at Him instead?

I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Grace is unmerited favor. Did the Israelites go back into slavery once they were free?

About those Iraelites who God freed from Egypt but rebelled in the wilderness...didn't they enter into the promised land? Their experience was a miniature plan of salvation.

Grace is unmerited favor. You can do nothing to merit grace. The grace given was at a GREAT cost. There was nothing cheap about what Jesus did.

Romans 7 " But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life]."

It's not about the law anymore.

I think you conveniently left out the rest of Chapter 7.

Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[Sophia7]

It seems to me that no one here is really saying that it's OK to sin because we are not under law but under grace. I think people just have different definitions of sin.

 

[OntheDL]

Where is the Sabbath command in the new covenant?

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.

Hebrews 4
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

The rest in Hebrew is Shabbat (sabbath). vs 10 gives the reason the Shabbat rest remains, because God rested from His work on the 7th day.

Isaiah 66:22&23 tells us the sabbath worship will continue throughout the ceaseless eternity.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

 

[OntheDL]

My disagreement with this is that I believe that God initiates the process of justification and sanctification. We wouldn't even be able to submit to the Holy Spirit without the gift of faith that comes from God.

That's true that holy spirit does first reach out to us. But we still have the choice of respond or reject.

And if we look at how God works, He always waits for us to take the first step.

Abraham was about to slay his son before he was stopped. The Israelites marched to the water then the Red Sea parted. The leper went to show the sanhedrins they were clean. God looks for our leap of faith. Besides if one never tries to be holy, he'd never know just how much he needs Jesus.

 

[OntheDL]

It seems to me that no one here is really saying that it's OK to sin because we are not under law but under grace. I think people just have different definitions of sin.

It's a clever spin.

 

[Jimlarmore]

It seems to me that no one here is really saying that it's OK to sin because we are not under law but under grace. I think people just have different definitions of sin.

What they are saying is that they don't have to worry about it because they are released from the regulations of the law. However, not to many of them would say it's ok to go and have an affair or rob a bank. So what is sin? That is what I have been trying to get them to say but they are spinning and side stepping around a direct answer.

I think Paul makes it clear sin is defined as the transgression of God's Holy law the ten commandments. The passages above are clear Paul is speaking of them as he says he wouldn't even know what sin was if it hadn't been for the law. The Bible thus makes it very clear what sin is in 1 John 3:4 , it's the transgression of the law of God.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jon0388g]

That little old fourth commandment, eh? It's a thorn in the devil's spine, methinks.

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy...."

Jon

 

[freeindeed2]

What they are saying is that they don't have to worry about it because they are released from the regulations of the law.

We are released from the law when we shared in Christ's death in order that we could be joined to another, Jesus Christ. The law has nothing to say to those who Christ has made righteous with his righteousness.

However, not to many of them would say it's ok to go and have an affair or rob a bank.

Why would someone with the Spirit of God living in them think it OK to have an affair or rob a bank. The Spirit CAUSES them to reflect God's glory 'more and more'.

So what is sin? That is what I have been trying to get them to say but they are spinning and side stepping around a direct answer.

Whatever is not of faith. Those who are not led by the Spirit either don't care, or are in a 'do-it-yourself', 'save-yourself' works oriented religion based on their ability to keep or try to follow the old law which can only condemn them. They are not living by faith, faith that Jesus has fulfilled the law on their behalf.

I think Paul makes it clear sin is defined as the transgression of God's Holy law the ten commandments. The passages above are clear Paul is speaking of them as he says he wouldn't even know what sin was if it hadn't been for the law. The Bible thus makes it very clear what sin is in 1 John 3:4 , it's the transgression of the law of God.

More lifting up of the law instead of Jesus. This is exactly the mentality that Paul fought against.

I'm not sure which texts you're referring to in your post, but I see you're plucking 1 John 3:4 out of context again, so picking it up from where you left off:

"And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, for there is no sin in him. So if we continue to live in him, we won't sin either. But those who keep on sinning have never known him or understood who he is." v.5, 6

John is certainly not talking about man's ability to be morally perfect here. If he was talking about only the breaking of the 10C's here as a definition for sin, then you and everyone else that has ever been on the face of the earth are in big trouble! I hope you see the problem with your narrow, out of context definition of sin. You're condemned by your own words, and you acknowledge that you are not in Christ by virtue of your own definition, because you still break the 10!

 

[freeindeed2]

That little old fourth commandment, eh? It's a thorn in the devil's spine, methinks.

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy...."

Jon

Maybe for those who are children of the slave woman and worship at Mt. Sinai.

But not for those who are children of the free woman and worship at Mt. Zion in the New Jerusalem.

 

[OntheDL]

Maybe for those who are children of the slave woman and worship at Mt. Sinai.

But not for those who are children of the free woman and worship at Mt. Zion in the New Jerusalem.

Actually Paul was talking the law of Moses, not the 10 commandments.

Surely you don't mean now I'm free to rob you and take your wife, right?

 

[Eila]

The part you bolded above shows that sin is possible after being saved so we are not released from the regulations of the law which defines what sin is to start with 1 John 3:4. I have never said we were under the law to save us. That has never been the case. Salvation has always been by the grace of God even in Old Testament times.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Sin is not 10 commandment lawlessness. If that is your definition how would you define homosexuality? Sin is wrong-doing. How do we know what wrong-doing is?

1 John 3 says "
19By this we shall come to know (perceive, recognize, and understand) that we are of the Truth, and can reassure (quiet, conciliate, and pacify) our hearts in His presence,
20Whenever our hearts in [[n]tormenting] self-accusation make us feel guilty and condemn us. [For [o]we are in God's hands.] For He is above and greater than our consciences (our hearts), and He knows (perceives and understands) everything [nothing is hidden from Him].
21And, beloved, if our consciences (our hearts) do not accuse us [if they do not make us feel guilty and condemn us], we have confidence (complete assurance and boldness) before God,
22And we receive from Him whatever we ask, because we [[p]watchfully] obey His orders [observe His suggestions and injunctions, follow His plan for us] and [[q]habitually] practice what is pleasing to Him.
23And this is His order (His command, His injunction): that we should believe in (put our faith and trust in and adhere to and rely on) the name of His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah), and that we should love one another, just as He has commanded us.
24All who keep His commandments [who obey His orders and follow His plan, live and continue to live, to stay and] abide in Him, and He in them. [[r]They let Christ be a home to them and they are the home of Christ.] And by this we know and understand and have the proof that He [really] lives and makes His home in us: by the [Holy] Spirit Whom He has given us."

Salvation was not possible in OT times. Jesus had not died and the blood of bulls and goats was not sufficient to take away sin.

 

[freeindeed2]

Actually Paul was talking the law of Moses, not the 10 commandments.

Only those who lift up the law try to make the distinctions/divisions in THE LAW you and others here do.

Surely you don't mean now I'm free to rob you and take your wife, right?

We are free to follow the Spirit instead of our sinful natures.

"7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. 8 That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.

9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)" Romans 8

I don't see those led by the Spirit being led to do the awful things you speak of. [staff edit] Are you afraid of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead in your life? Or do you feel you do a better job by making efforts to keep the old covenant/10 commandments?

 

[Eila]

Then are you saying the bible teaches salvation by work with the following statements?

"not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter into heaven except for those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven".

What is His will? That we believe on His Son and love one another. These people referred to here are called ones he "never knew". These people were never saved.

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

These commandments are to believe on Jesus and love one another.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Then is the bible saying we are saved by keeping the law by our own power. No, by His power.

Action is important. I fully believe that agape love is faith in action.

Can you turn the steer wheel of a 10 ton Mach truck without power steering? Not a chance. But with the power steering, you can now turn it with ease. But power steering would not turn the truck for you if you don't first give the steering input.

That is the difference!

So you are saying that Jesus came to make it easier for you to keep the law?

You did not answer the question why He came in a human flesh. The verses you quoted tell us exactly why shouldn't sin: by God's creative power that renews us. If we are born-again truly, we do not sin.

He came in human flesh to take my place. He fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law. He took my punishment so I could be reconciled back to God. He had to come in the flesh to be my Substitute - because I am human.

I think you conveniently left out the rest of Chapter 7.

Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Hey you forgot chapter 8

"1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit...."

 

[Eila]

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.

Hebrews 4
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

The rest in Hebrew is Shabbat (sabbath). vs 10 gives the reason the Shabbat rest remains, because God rested from His work on the 7th day.

Isaiah 66:22&23 tells us the sabbath worship will continue throughout the ceaseless eternity.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

I don't see a command to keep the Sabbath here.

 

[Eila]

Actually Paul was talking the law of Moses, not the 10 commandments.

Weren't the 10 commandments given at Sinai too?