Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

[tall73]

For discussion between Adventists, former Adventists, liberal Adventists, conservative Adventists, reformed Adventists, and those who don't feel comfortable discussing in the Adventist forum.

 

[freeindeed2]

I'm not even sure these statements are 'denominationally specific' but they came from the SDA threads, so here it goes.

Unfortunately the majority of the professed christians were buried alive.

The entire christiandom is stuck at the cross. The cross is not the end, but the beginning of the plan of salvation. They know not they are perishing.

OntheDL, you've accused all Christians of being 'stuck at the cross'. I would like to know exactly what you mean my that, especially in light of the following Scriptures which I originally posted on an SDA thread:

"For Christ didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News--and not with clever speeches and high-sounding ideas, for fear that the cross of Christ would lose its power.​

I know very well how foolish the message of the cross sounds to those who are on the road to destruction. But we who are being saved recognize this message as the very power of God." 1 Cor. 1:17, 18​

"For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2​

"But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." Gal 6:14​

"But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down. For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die." Gal 2:17-21​

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there." Gal 5:24​

And there are many more. What are you saying by "stuck at the cross?!" This is the core of the Gospel message, that the Lamb of God became sin for sinful man, laid down his life, and shed his blood in order to make perfect and complete atonement for us so that through Jesus, we might be saved! Jesus life, death, and resurrection are salvation to sinners!

If I'm going to be stuck somewhere, let it be at the foot of the empty cross, where Jesus paid in full the price for ALL my sin! I'm with Paul, "God forbid that I should boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ."

freeindeed (proudly boasting about the cross of Christ!)

Just wanting to know how you would address the importance Paul placed on the cross as the core of the Gospel offering salvation for sinners?

Thanks!

 

[Adventtruth]

I'm not even sure these statements are 'denominationally specific' but they came from the SDA threads, so here it goes.




OntheDL, you've accused all Christians of being 'stuck at the cross'. I would like to know exactly what you mean my that, especially in light of the following Scriptures which I originally posted on an SDA thread:

"For Christ didn't send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News--and not with clever speeches and high-sounding ideas, for fear that the cross of Christ would lose its power.​

I know very well how foolish the message of the cross sounds to those who are on the road to destruction. But we who are being saved recognize this message as the very power of God." 1 Cor. 1:17, 18​

"For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2​

"But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." Gal 6:14​

"But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down. For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die." Gal 2:17-21​

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there." Gal 5:24​

And there are many more. What are you saying by "stuck at the cross?!" This is the core of the Gospel message, that the Lamb of God became sin for sinful man, laid down his life, and shed his blood in order to make perfect and complete atonement for us so that through Jesus, we might be saved! Jesus life, death, and resurrection are salvation to sinners!

If I'm going to be stuck somewhere, let it be at the foot of the empty cross, where Jesus paid in full the price for ALL my sin! I'm with Paul, "God forbid that I should boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ."

freeindeed (proudly boasting about the cross of Christ!)

Just wanting to know how you would address the importance Paul placed on the cross as the core of the Gospel offering salvation for sinners?

Thanks!

Hey ontheDL waiting for you! Please reply!

AT

 

[freeindeed2]

From a discussion in another thread where reddogs is asserting that all Christians are obligated to keep the old covenant, specifically the sign of the covenant, the Sabbath.

This short quote below comes from a much larger essay by reddogs that he posted. In it he attempts to divide the law into two parts in order to extract the 10 commandments from being a part of the old covenant, in an ultimate effort to establish that the Sabbath is binding on all.

I disagree and present Scripture that shows the 10C's to be the heart of the old covenant God made with Israel, and further show that breaking one of the 10C's was breaking the actual covenant itself.

Again, it is impossible for the Ten Commandments to have been part of the Old Covenant that was done away with; as such it was NOT the law that Christ nailed to the cross.

So how would you redefine these passages to fit your premise?

Deut 4:13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.​

Deut 9:9 "When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the LORD had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water.​

Deut 9:11 "It came about at the end of forty days and nights that the LORD gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.​

1 Kings 8:21 "There I have set a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD, which He made with our fathers when He brought them from the land of Egypt."​

1 Kings 8:9 "There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the LORD made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt."​

Hebrews 9:4 ...having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;​

There's more, but I think this at least establishes that the 10 Commandments/Tablets of Stone were the VERY HEART of the Old Covenant.



Breaking one of the 10 was equated with breaking the covenant! That would be difficult if they were not part of the covenant as you have claimed.

Deut 29:25, 26 "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt. 'They went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they have not known and whom He had not allotted to them.​

Deut 31:16 The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.​

Judges 2:19, 20 But it came about when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their stubborn ways. So the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and He said, "Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers and has not listened to My voice,​

Joshua 23:16 "When you transgress the covenant of the LORD your God, which He commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and you will perish quickly from off the good land which He has given you."​

2 Kings 17:15, 16 They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated the nations around them although the LORD had ordered them, "Do not do as they do," and they did the things the LORD had forbidden them to do. They forsook all the commands of the LORD their God and made for themselves two idols cast in the shape of calves, and an Asherah pole. They bowed down to all the starry hosts, and they worshiped Baal.​

Joshua 7:10, 11 The LORD said to Joshua, "Stand up! What are you doing down on your face? Israel has sinned; they have violated my covenant, which I commanded them to keep. They have taken some of the devoted things; they have stolen, they have lied, they have put them with their own possessions.​

The Bible CLEARLY shows that the 10 Commandments were THE COVENANT, the very heart of it, that God made with Israel, and it further shows that breaking one of the 10 Commandments was equivalent of breaking the Covenant (as demonstrated by Israel breaking numbers 1, 2, 8, & 10)!

Before moving forward from here it would be good if you could show how you redefine all of these verses to establish your premise that the 10 Commandments were not a part of the covenant God made with Israel.

 

[freeindeed2]

I would like a response to a few questions:

Do sabbatarian groups (SDA's) actually keep the Jewish Sabbath HOLY?

Do they keep it exactly as it was given to Israel?

If not, how do they justify the differences in how they keep it today?

 

[Jimlarmore]

One semantic clarification here. A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties. The law could never be the covenant between God and His people. The covenant was their pledge to obey the laws. The laws were the frame work and base for the covenant but not the covenant itself. I think this is significant. It wasn't the ten commandments fault or something wrong with them it was the people who didn't obey them as they agreed to do before their creator.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

I would like a response to a few questions:

Do sabbatarian groups (SDA's) actually keep the Jewish Sabbath HOLY?

Do they keep it exactly as it was given to Israel?

If not, how do they justify the differences in how they keep it today?

This is the main theme and attack from all formers or ex-adventists and that is to attack the 7th day Sabbath observance and the ten commandments in general.

However, I think your questions above are skewed and irrelevant. This is like saying ok, since a certain percentage of folks shack up and comit adultery that part of the ten commandments has got to be out of force. Whether anyone has ever kept the 7th day holy is between them and their creator and whether they do or not should never determine the validity of the 7th day's holy sanctity set aside at creation. The question to me in this issue is to determine if the ten commandments are still in effect.

To answer that we only need to go to the new testament and read that it was Christ's custom to worship on the 7th day Sabbath i.e. Luke 4:16. Additionally, it's very clear from the scripture that Christ supported and quoted nearly all of the other ten commandments. Since we are admonished in scripture to live as Christ lived and do as He did, it becomes apparent the ten commandment law is still binding and in effect.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jon0388g]

This is the main theme and attack from all formers or ex-adventists and that is to attack the 7th day Sabbath observance and the ten commandments in general.

However, I think your questions above are skewed and irrelevant. This is like saying ok, since a certain percentage of folks shack up and comit adultery that part of the ten commandments has got to be out of force. Whether anyone has ever kept the 7th day holy is between them and their creator and whether they do or not should never determine the validity of the 7th day's holy sanctity. The question to me in this issue is to determine if the ten commandments are still in effect.

To answer that we only need to go to the new testament and read that it was Christ's custom to worship on the 7th day Sabbath i.e. Luke 4:16. Additionally, it's very clear from the scripture that Christ supported and quoted nearly all of the other ten commandments. Since we are admonished in scripture to live as Christ lived and do as He did, it becomes apparent the ten commandment law is still binding and in effect.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Amen Jim.

Unfortunately, the devil wants us at either extreme; no law altogether, or reliance on law fully.

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law...Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." Romans 3:31

Jon

 

[Jon0388g]

Hi Freeindeed - I read this in one of your posts:

"Christ's death on the cross is the core of the Gospel."

I feel I must respectfully disagree. It is not Christ's death on the cross that is the core - rather, His resurrection.

"and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, your faith is also in vain....and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." 1 Corinthians 15:14, 17

Scripture also supports the fact that the events at and after the Cross are the beginning of our journey to the Father, through Christ's sacrifice:

"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in the newness of life...knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin....But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life....[for] the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." Romans 6:4,6,22, Mark 13:13



Jon

 

[Jimlarmore]

Thanks Jon,
I took the time to look up Rom 3:31 in my Green's interlinear and the word for law is "nomos" #3551 in the exhaustive concordance. One of the definitions of nomos was the law then parenthesis they listed the word Moses, regulation, then it said used to parsel out food or grazing especially to animals. I'd say this could definetely include the ten commandment laws.

One of the major problems I have encountered in my study of the law in the Pauline epistles is Paul never diffferentiated between the two laws i.e. the ceremonial laws and the ten commandment laws. You have to study the context to see which law he is specifying each time. For instance in Col 2:14 the context tells us it is not the ten commandment laws because Paul specifically speaks of "the hand writings of ordinances that was against us" and then in verse 16 he mentions "holidays, new moons and sabbath days". Here we see Paul is clearly mentioning the Levitical laws and customs associated with the ceremonial law of Moses not the ten commandments.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

No one addressed my OP in the thread that was closed on the SDA forum. The question is , What is sin? Freeindeed has gotten upset because I had accused formers of practicing sin while claiming to be under grace. I would like to continue that here at this time.

The Bible makes it clear that sin is lawlessness or the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4. I think it's clear from the Bible that the law spoken of here is the ten commandment law. So when someone violates one of God's law is it sin or not? Once you are saved can you comit sin willfully or is that right taken away now? If you can sin or not worry about sin after being saved then what is sin for the saved living under grace?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

Hi Freeindeed - I read this in one of your posts:

"Christ's death on the cross is the core of the Gospel."

I feel I must respectfully disagree. It is not Christ's death on the cross that is the core - rather, His resurrection.

Hi Jon. You are free to disagree. That's the neat thing about being free! Of course, I disagree with you (respectfully also). You're not addressing the Scriptures either, and I'm not really sure why...? But I'll respond to what you've posted (because I would like you to respond what I posted!!!).

The core of the Gospel is the "Good News" that Jesus has already paid our debt in FULL. That penalty was paid at the cross when he bore all sin on his shoulders and died our death for us. That is the core of the Good News. To say otherwise, IMO, is to deny the purpose of the plan of salvation!

The fact that he came out of the grave shows that he has victory and power over death. But his resurrection is not the basis for declaring sinners "not guilty". It is, however, the guarantee that those who have been justified by Christ's blood (CROSS) will be raised to eternal life (WON AT THE CROSS) even if their earthly bodies die.

"and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, your faith is also in vain....and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." 1 Corinthians 15:14, 17

I have no problem with these verses. Don't skip v.3-5 though.

"3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."​

This is all the Gospel. I just stated that Jesus death on the cross for sinners is it's core (which you disagree with). People in Corinth were denying that there would be a resurrection and the false teachings had made their way into the church. Paul hit these teachings head on. But this doesn't deny what he's said elsewhere (the Scriptures you didn't address in the post).

Scripture also supports the fact that the events at and after the Cross are the beginning of our journey to the Father, through Christ's sacrifice:

"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in the newness of life...knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin....But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life....[for] the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." Romans 6:4,6,22, Mark 13:13

Just don't get the cart before the horse. There is no resurrection without penalty for sin being paid at the cross. You've skipped a lot of good verses between in an effort to try and extract your point out of the text.

And I think you may have missed this part of my post. If you had read it you might not have even made your post!

This is the core of the Gospel message, that the Lamb of God became sin for sinful man, laid down his life, and shed his blood in order to make perfect and complete atonement for us so that through Jesus, we might be saved! Jesus life, death, and resurrection are salvation to sinners!

If I'm going to be stuck somewhere, let it be at the foot of the empty cross, where Jesus paid in full the price for ALL my sin! I'm with Paul, "God forbid that I should boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[freeindeed2]

This is the main theme and attack from all formers or ex-adventists and that is to attack the 7th day Sabbath observance and the ten commandments in general.

However, I think your questions above are skewed and irrelevant. This is like saying ok, since a certain percentage of folks shack up and comit adultery that part of the ten commandments has got to be out of force. Whether anyone has ever kept the 7th day holy is between them and their creator and whether they do or not should never determine the validity of the 7th day's holy sanctity set aside at creation. The question to me in this issue is to determine if the ten commandments are still in effect.

To answer that we only need to go to the new testament and read that it was Christ's custom to worship on the 7th day Sabbath i.e. Luke 4:16. Additionally, it's very clear from the scripture that Christ supported and quoted nearly all of the other ten commandments. Since we are admonished in scripture to live as Christ lived and do as He did, it becomes apparent the ten commandment law is still binding and in effect.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jim, these are hardly 'skewed and irrelevant' questions! You believe that Christians are required or obligated to keep the Sabbath HOLY! If you personally do not believe this then you can't really answer the questions.

However, the SDA church does teach that Christians are requried to keep the Sabbath. Questions about how it should be kept should be expected and clearly answered from Scripture. The SDA church says that the Sabbath is:

• the seal of God
• the dividing wall (between the lost and the saved)
• the final test of loyalty to God

Of course they say much more about the Sabbath too. But, if this is what you believe then the questions are absolutely fair questions. I'll even simplify them.

Do SDA's keep the Sabbath HOLY? (How?)

Do SDA's keep it exactly as it was commanded?

If not, how do they justify the differences in how they keep it today?
​

If the Sabbath is what SDA's claim it is then these deserve to be answered precisely. The penalty for breaking the Sabbath was/is death, so I would think specific instructions are in order that clearly define something as important as SDA's claim this is.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Jim, these are hardly 'skewed and irrelevant' questions! You believe that Christians are required or obligated to keep the Sabbath HOLY! If you personally do not believe this then you can't really answer the questions.

My personal beliefs have nothing to do with whether the 7th day Sabbath should be kept holy or not. You're trying to make an issue out of how SDA's keep the Sabbath to denigrate it's significance or to make a point that no one has ever kept it. I'll tell you that fact true or not does not matter one iotta on the sanctity of the Sabbath. God made the Sabbath at the end of creation week and He's the one who made it holy. Nothing man can do or say will change that. The Bible tells us how to keep and observe the holy hours in Ex 20:8-11 and Isa . 58:13 to name a few.

However, the SDA church does teach that Christians are requried to keep the Sabbath. Questions about how it should be kept should be expected and clearly answered from Scripture. The SDA church says that the Sabbath is:

• the seal of God
• the dividing wall (between the lost and the saved)
• the final test of loyalty to God.

This is not totally accurate and the insinuations are disingenuous to say the least. The components of a seal are found within the 4th commandment but to say Sabbath itself is the seal of God is stretching the truth.
As I said above the Bible lays out the way we are to keep the Sabbath. Whether SDA's or anyone else is doing that or not is irrelevant to the truth of the scriptures and doesn't change the requirements of God.

In Ezek 20:12 the Bible makes it clear that Sabbath observance is a sign between God and His people.

If the Sabbath is what SDA's claim it is then these deserve to be answered precisely. The penalty for breaking the Sabbath was/is death, so I would think specific instructions are in order that clearly define something as important as SDA's claim this is.

The instructions are found within the pages of the Bible. The reason there is so much contention on the way it should be kept is the selfish desires of those who direct their own paths instead of allowing Christ to direct them.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jon0388g]

You're not addressing the Scriptures either, and I'm not really sure why...? But I'll respond to what you've posted (because I would like you to respond what I posted!!!).

I did refer to Scripture.

The core of the Gospel is the "Good News" that Jesus has already paid our debt in FULL. That penalty was paid at the cross when he bore all sin on his shoulders and died our death for us. That is the core of the Good News. To say otherwise, IMO, is to deny the purpose of the plan of salvation!

(BTW, what does IMO mean?!)

The plan of salvation was to bridge the gap between us and the Father. Through Jesus, we can 'draw near' to the throne, for the Jesus said 'I am the Way...,' agreed?

I am not denying the purpose of the plan of salvation.

My point is that, I disagree that Jesus' death is the very core of the Gospel. Of course, this is pretty close to it, obviously, but not the 'core' itself. What if Jesus was not who He said He was? Then, there is no forgiveness of sins, there is no resurrection of the dead, and we all perish. This is what Paul was stressing in Corinthians 15.

There would be no 'Good News' if Christ had not risen. The 'Good News' is that He was raised, and was successful in providing the propitiation for our sins. This is the core of the Gospel.

The fact that he came out of the grave shows that he has victory and power over death. But his resurrection is not the basis for declaring sinners "not guilty". It is, however, the guarantee that those who have been justified by Christ's blood (CROSS) will be raised to eternal life (WON AT THE CROSS) even if their earthly bodies die.

Yes, I agree - but if He had not risen in the first place, then are you saying that sinners could still be declared 'not guilty' even if He was not raised?

I am willing to be corrected on this point: Was Jesus' resurrection only the result of His sinless life? If Jesus had committed but one sin, no matter how 'small,' he would not have been resurrected. The sacrifice required a spotless lamb. Am I correct?

If so, then if Jesus had not been resurrected, that would have meant His sacrifice was not sufficient, and sinners would never be declared 'not guilty.' My point is that the resurrection itself confirms the Good News of the Gospel.

I have no problem with these verses. Don't skip v.3-5 though.

"3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."​

This is all the Gospel. I just stated that Jesus death on the cross for sinners is it's core (which you disagree with). People in Corinth were denying that there would be a resurrection and the false teachings had made their way into the church. Paul hit these teachings head on. But this doesn't deny what he's said elsewhere (the Scriptures you didn't address in the post).

Which Scriptures are these?

Vs 3-4 are confirming that Christ died for our sins. But Paul goes on to say that if there is no resurrection, then this belief is in vain, and 'we are still in our sins.' What don't you agree with?

Just don't get the cart before the horse. There is no resurrection without penalty for sin being paid at the cross. You've skipped a lot of good verses between in an effort to try and extract your point out of the text.

And I think you may have missed this part of my post. If you had read it you might not have even made your post!

If you could point out the good verses I skipped, then we can discuss them further!

Jon

 

[Jimlarmore]

Freeindeed,
Neither you or adventtruth has addressed my questions concerning sin. Why not? Isn't this the main issue over this debate about me accusing you and other formers of practicing sin? Let's get to the meat of the whole matter. You want to debate, let's debate!!! This whole thing about the validity of the Sabbath is a side track manuever away from what you consider grace to be.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

I have to go until tomorrow morning. See you guys then.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

My personal beliefs have nothing to do with whether the 7th day Sabbath should be kept holy or not.

No sir. I'm addressing these questions to a denomination that believes those who aren't keeping the Sabbath by the end of time will be lost (unless receiving the Mark of the Beast does NOT mean they are lost).

You're trying to make an issue out of how SDA's keep the Sabbath...

And sure I take issue with how SDA's 'keep' the Sabbath. The church teaches that all must keep it but can't define how it should be kept, and they don't keep it how it was given! Who wouldn't take issue with that?

...to denigrate it's significance or to make a point that no one has ever kept it.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! I am NOT denegrating the significance of the Sabbath! I fully acknowledge the role the Sabbath played as the sign of the old covenant. And I acknowledge that the Sabbath, along with the entire law, was never abolished or destroyed. It stood firmly in place UNTIL its fulfillment, which Jesus clearly told the people he had come to do.

Just because nobody has ever kept it doesn't mean it wasn't significant. I never denegrated what the Sabbath stood for.

I'll tell you that fact true or not does not matter one iotta on the sanctity of the Sabbath. God made the Sabbath at the end of creation week and He's the one who made it holy. Nothing man can do or say will change that.

Please show me from Scripture that God MADE the Sabbath at creation. On the 7th day he RESTED from all that he had made (because it was completed!). He didn't MAKE anything on the 7th day.

Also, can you show from Scripture that God continued to rest every 7th day thereafter without making ANY assumptions?

The Bible tells us how to keep and observe the holy hours in Ex 20:8-11 and Isa . 58:13 to name a few.

Now we might be getting somewhere. Are you going to show how the Sabbath was/is to be kept so that nobody is confused and breaks it?

This is not totally accurate and the insinuations are disingenuous to say the least. The components of a seal are found within the 4th commandment but to say Sabbath itself is the seal of God is stretching the truth.

Jim, do I need to go find the sources on this one. You and I both know that Adventism teaches that the Sabbath IS the seal of God. We both know that EGW clearly said the Sabbath would be the 'dividing wall' and the 'final test of loyalty'. I don't have the sources in front of me, but did you NOT know the SDA church taught this? I've heard many SDA evangelists (including Finley and Batchelor, Nelson, etc.) say these things while being on the platform with them (I was never on with Batchelor). Don't tell me I'm being disingenuous and inaccurate!

I understand perfectly how they attempt to come up with the seal from the 4th commandment. I used to preach it!

In Ezek 20:12 the Bible makes it clear that Sabbath observance is a sign between God and His people.

It also clearly tells you which people that is:

v.10, "So I brought my people out of Egypt and led them into the wilderness. There I gave them my laws so they could live by keeping them." (BTW, you and I were not part of that group!)

In verse 13 it also says that they violated the sign. They broke the covenant by NOT KEEPING THE SABBATH EXACTLY AS IT WAS GIVEN! I think this completely validates anyone's demand to be shown clearly from SDA's EXACTLY how they are to keep the sign of the old covenant which SDAism claims they are still under.

The instructions are found within the pages of the Bible.

Then you should have no problem explaining EXACTLY how it is to be kept.

The reason there is so much contention on the way it should be kept is the selfish desires of those who direct their own paths instead of allowing Christ to direct them.

Nice veiled accusation for those who do not live by the letter but by the Spirit. You have a difficult time realizing that the Holy Spirit has not convicted most Christians of the Sabbath, so you would rather accuse them of 'selfishly directing their own paths instead of following Christ' than accept the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Now you should be able to see where the contention comes from. It comes when groups like SDA's tell all other Christians that they are obligated to keep the Sabbath if they love God, and then won't answer direct questions when asked EXACTLY how it should be kept. They go on to tell them they will receive the Mark of the Beast and be lost. Then they see the inconsistencies between SDA beliefs and practice.

 

[freeindeed2]

Freeindeed,
Neither you or adventtruth has addressed my questions concerning sin. Why not? Isn't this the main issue over this debate about me accusing you and other formers of practicing sin? Let's get to the meat of the whole matter. You want to debate, let's debate!!! This whole thing about the validity of the Sabbath is a side track manuever away from what you consider grace to be.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Patience my friend. I'll get to your questions once mine are addressed. I remember your points well from another Forum that you mysteriously vanished from. People answered your accusations there and you disappeared. Why did you leave?

The Sabbath issue is no sidetrack manuever. It is the very heart of Adventism. It's the first thing people hear when they hear your name. You (and not just you personally) have either been unable or unwilling to answer simple questions to its regard.

I suppose we should be discussing Ellen White first since she is SDAism second source of authority for truth and literally IS one of the 28 fundamentals. She is the springboard for much of the false teachings with her 2000+ visions & 100,000 pages of writings. Once you resolve the issues with EGW then you are free to move forward. The problem here is we view these Biblical issues from two totally different perspectives. You have to see it the way EGW did or she and her teachings and writings fall (or you're thrown out, which would probably be the case). The rest of the Christians in the world don't have to filter everything through the SDA prophetess first and they don't have multiple sources of authority for truth.

I know you'll see that as a sidetrack also, but again, these elements are the heart of SDAism. The SDA onion is extremely complicated with totally different meanings using the exact same words.

We will get to your questions Jim. Please answer those already asked. You haven't done that yet.

 

[freeindeed2]

I did refer to Scripture.

(BTW, what does IMO mean?!)

I meant you didn't address the Scripture in the original post. You've put Scripture in your posts, but you did not address what was already presented.

IMO = In My Opinion

Gotta run. Back later.