Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

[Eila]

That's what you said, not me. I was just pointing out the commonly accepted facts.



Your or my believes are irrelavant. Thus saith the Lord.

Rev 2
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Don't try again to put a spin on it. I'm done talking to you.

OntheDL,

It sounds like you are upset. That was not my intention. If you don't wish to discuss anything that is totally your right If my words offend you please put me on ignore (I think that can be done, right?), because I do not wish to offend anyone.

I do get the impression that you do not believe you are saved yet, and that is a concern to me. However, I do not believe I will convince you otherwise.

Also, regarding the Law and the Prophets. Jesus referred to the Law and the Prophets and the New Testament had not been written yet so I don't understand why anyone would say the the Law and the Prophets is the whole Bible unless you do not believe the NT is the Bible.

 

[Eila]

The spirit of the accuser! Read the bible text I quoted before you accuse someone. That's from Revelation 2. Are you saying those verses are not from God?

You only take the text that's convenient while ignoring the rest.

Revelation is certainly from God. However, I think your interpretation is works-based. If you look in 1 John 5 (the same guy who wrote Revelation) we see who the overcomer is:

"4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"

 

[freeindeed2]

The spirit of the accuser! Read the bible text I quoted before you accuse someone. That's from Revelation 2. Are you saying those verses are not from God?

You only take the text that's convenient while ignoring the rest.

You didn't quote any texts. Please quote the texts that say "He that keeps my WORKS in the end will be saved." Do you believe in RIGHTEOUSNESS by faith or RIGHTEOUSNESS by works?

For me, I accept the righteousness of Christ on my behalf. I have NO righteousness of my own. My works are filthy 'rags'. I need Jesus to COMPETELY save me, as I can in NO way save myself.

Maybe you're 'good enough', but I am not. I'm a sinner that needs to be saved and I have no ability to save myself. I must rely on Jesus 100% for my salvation. His works have to be in place of my own works as my works are a disaster.

I'm happy for you if you believe that you can save yourself. Please accept that I have to humbly accept that Jesus has done it all for me! He alone is faithful to his promises and worthy of all my praise for what he has done on behalf of me, a sinner in need of being saved.

 

[Jimlarmore]

AMEN SISTER! Jesus has ALREADY given us 'overwhelming victory'!!!!!! It's not about us, but about Jesus. I wish the law-mongerers would start lifting up Jesus our salvation, rather than the law that condems.

We do lift Him and His Grace up, the problem is you deny His power to keep you from sinning. How can you claim victory over sin when you freely admit you continually comit it and have no power even being a christian to keep from comitting sin?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

Oh I don't want to offend you or any. Am I'm sure you do not entend to offend either. But please kindly forgive me for doing so in the past.,,so we do have a deal

Now I was asking you to provide scripture that faith is not a gift.

Blessings

AT

Good deal I'm glad we got that out of the way. I never said faith was not a gift AT. What I said was it's not going to be forced on us and faith without works is dead. The work of the Holy Spirit on our lives may prompt us to come to God but it's still our choice to do it. That choice and subsequent submissions are works in and of themselves that initiate the plan of salvation. I'm doing this on a sunday in my office so I don't have my Bible but surely you remember many passsages where God/Christ calls the people of God to make a decision to follow Him. In Deuteronomy Mose did it when he said I lay before you life and death therefore choose life. Elijah also did it on Mt.Carmel when God sent down a stream of fire that consumed the sacrifice, wood, stones and water around it.

After we are justified/saved then the work of sanctification begins. This is where you formers conveniently stop. You say that there is nothing anyone can ever do to make sanctification a reality in the life of the Christian. I disagree because the Bible makes it very clear that we are to work hand in hand with God so He can make us Holy and perfect. Christ said it this way, Take up your cross and follow Me. Taking up our cross is symbolic of daily dying to our sinful nature and following Him is symbolic of this daily walk and communion with Christ that keeps us from practiceing sin. Time after time the Bible points out that it is external acts of obedience to God's laws that set His people aside from the rest of the world. The passage in Ezekiel that says the observance of the Sabbath would be a sign between Him and His people is a prime example of this. When Christ said if you love me keep my commandments He was speaking of directly obeying His commandments. Obedience and salvation are always tied hand in hand. Not that obedience will save that is not what I am saying. We don't obey TO BE SAVED we obey BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED and love the life and law giver.

Remember it was sin that killed the Lord on the cross. It was sin that brought Him down here to start with to fulfill the requirements of the law. We should avoid sin like a plague. Instead of saying no one will ever be able to keep God's law which is denying the power of Christ in our lives we should be saying I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

We are released from the law when we shared in Christ's death in order that we could be joined to another, Jesus Christ. The law has nothing to say to those who Christ has made righteous with his righteousness.

This comes from a misinterpretation of the Pauline scriptures and it is ignoring or twisting many other scriptures that make it clear that we are not released from observing God's law ( example, in Rev it says that those who would be ready to meet the Lord will be those who keep the commandments of God ) . Salvation is by faith but when we are saved we will keep the law because we love the law giver. Your position is that it doesn't matter if you break the law or not or that no one can keep the law now or ever . This is rubbish dialogue and it also denies the power of Christ to keep us from sinning. This is where you get into trouble and in a deadly dangerous mind set.

Why would someone with the Spirit of God living in them think it OK to have an affair or rob a bank. The Spirit CAUSES them to reflect God's glory 'more and more'.

Well, according to you it really doesn't matter does it? Sin is sin, the degree is only a matter of personal perspective. IOW, lying is just as bad as adultery to God. I agree with your question above though but then again , why do you say it's ok to violate the Sabbath or throw God's Holy law out the window when it defines this attrocities listed above you said no one with the Spirit of God in them would do? You're not making any sense.

Whatever is not of faith. Those who are not led by the Spirit either don't care, or are in a 'do-it-yourself', 'save-yourself' works oriented religion based on their ability to keep or try to follow the old law which can only condemn them. They are not living by faith, faith that Jesus has fulfilled the law on their behalf.

Fulfilling the requirements of the law does not mean He threw it out the window and we are no longer to use it to define what sin is. The Bible makes it clear that this law will be used to judge the world. Why would He throw it away? When you say sin is anything that is not of faith you are speaking in large areas of generalities and I challenge you to support that idea from scripture. Sin is always defined as lawlessness or the transgression of the law.

I'm not sure which texts you're referring to in your post, but I see you're plucking 1 John 3:4 out of context again, so picking it up from where you left off:

"And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, for there is no sin in him. So if we continue to live in him, we won't sin either. But those who keep on sinning have never known him or understood who he is." v.5, 6

I have no problem with the context of 1 John3:4 it makes it clear that if we live in Christ His power will keep us from sinning. How does that say the law is thrown away or that the law is now no longer used to define sin. Paul himself said that if it were not for the law he wouldn't know what sin is.

John is certainly not talking about man's ability to be morally perfect here. If he was talking about only the breaking of the 10C's here as a definition for sin, then you and everyone else that has ever been on the face of the earth are in big trouble! I hope you see the problem with your narrow, out of context definition of sin. You're condemned by your own words, and you acknowledge that you are not in Christ by virtue of your own definition, because you still break the 10!

On the contrary it is the blood of Christ and His grace that keeps me from sinning. I am not perfect yet but the work of sanctification continues. The Bible says in Revelation that the saints overcame satan with the blood of the lamb. You notice what it says, they overcame sin by the blood of the lamb. Salvation is now and has always been a comensal thing that takes the efforts and committment of the sinner coupled with the love and grace of an Almighty Savior.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

Sin is not 10 commandment lawlessness. If that is your definition how would you define homosexuality? Sin is wrong-doing. How do we know what wrong-doing is?

Homo-sexuality would fall under the adultery commandment. It was listed as an abomination before God as are a few other things but every sin that can be committed can be classified within the ten commandments. The Bible says in James that if you know to do right and don't do it then that becomes sin but you can still classify any sin within the boundaries of the ten commandments.

Salvation was not possible in OT times. Jesus had not died and the blood of bulls and goats was not sufficient to take away sin.

Technically you may be right here but I think the fact that Enoch and Elijah were allowed to be translated meant the system in place and their pious lives earned them a right to be brought to heaven. So are you saying these guys were not saved when they went to heaven?
BTW, these things happened long before Christ died on the cross.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

On the contrary it is the blood of Christ and His grace that keeps me from sinning.

So you don't sin anymore, which by your definition means you keep the elementary 10 commandments perfectly?

I am not perfect yet but the work of sanctification continues.

OH....so you do sin even by your own definition. Jim, since you haven't stopped breaking the law/old covenant, you are in NO position to be coaching others as to how you believe it is to be kept. YOU'RE NOT KEEPING IT!

The Bible says in Revelation that the saints overcame satan with the blood of the lamb. You notice what it says, they overcame sin by the blood of the lamb. Salvation is now and has always been a comensal thing that takes the efforts and committment of the sinner coupled with the love and grace of an Almighty Savior.

This is called RIGHTEOUSNESS BY WORKS! I know you deny that it's Jesus that saves us, but I have to claim him as my Savior!!! I cannot save myself and I need him to save me completely! While you may be able to rely on yourself for your salvation, I must rely on Jesus for mine. Condemn me for relying on Jesus if you want, but I'm told that there is no condemnation for me or judgment because of what HE has done for me on my behalf. I'll have to stick with him.

But good luck to you! I hope you are worthy and faithful to save yourself. My assurance is in Christ alone!

 

[freeindeed2]

We do lift Him and His Grace up,

I must have missed any reference to the saving power of Jesus Christ. Would you please direct me to the post where you are lifting up Jesus up and not the law, old covenant, or Sabbath?

the problem is you deny His power to keep you from sinning.

I get confused with your posts sometimes. Are you now saying that you no longer sin? Your only definition of sin is the breaking of the elementary 10 commandments, so ARE YOU CLAIMING THAT YOU DON'T BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS ANYMORE?

The reason I ask is because in another post I just read from you, you said that you weren't perfect, but here you seem to be saying that you don't sin. So which is it?

How can you claim victory over sin when you freely admit you continually comit it and have no power even being a christian to keep from comitting sin?

I will freely admit that I don't keep the law/old covenant perfectly. And I am perfectly willing to claim that nobody does on the face of the planet.

However...here's why I can claim victory over sin! (HINT: It has nothing to do with my efforts! No one is good, not even ONE!)

"The law of Moses could not save us, because of our sinful nature. But God put into effect a different plane to save us. God destroyed sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the requirement of the law would be fully accomplished for us who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit." Rom 8:3,4

...and then, "No, despite all these things [calamity, persecution, hunger, cold, danger, death threats], overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us." v.37

Put your faith (which he gave you) in Jesus! Righteousness by faith means that we trust in Jesus and what he did for us, not that our cooperative efforts are coupled with his for our salvation. If you don't believe that Jesus saves us 100%, then you believe in righteousness by your own works, even if it's only 1%.

I'll keep claiming victory through Christ Jesus and his sacrifice for my sin!

 

[Jon0388g]

OH....so you do sin even by your own definition. Jim, since you haven't stopped breaking the law/old covenant, you are in NO position to be coaching others as to how you believe it is to be kept. YOU'RE NOT KEEPING IT!

Wow, you sound like the accuser!

"Let those be ashamed and humiliated altogether who rejoice at my distress" Psalm 35:26

I know you deny that it's Jesus that saves us

But good luck to you! I hope you are worthy and faithful to save yourself.

Where has Jim said this? He has repeatedly said the opposite, and you repeatedly bear false witness (even though, to you that matters not no longer).

Jim, there really isn't much point, you are not getting your point across.

A text to consider:

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned." Titus 3:9-11

Jon

 

[OldShepherd]

[size=+1]Closed for staff review. Members are reminded to address the topic NOT other members.[/size]

 

[freeindeed2]

Wow, you sound like the accuser!

"Let those be ashamed and humiliated altogether who rejoice at my distress" Psalm 35:26

I'm not the one making the claims.

Where has Jim said this? He has repeatedly said the opposite, and you repeatedly bear false witness (even though, to you that matters not no longer).

I don't pick that up from his posts (that Jesus does the saving). I hear a lot about what he does though!

Jim, there really isn't much point, you are not getting your point across.

His point comes through loud and clear. We are responsible, AT LEAST in some part, for our own salvation!

A text to consider:

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned." Titus 3:9-11[/quote]
You do bring up a valid point here. Good text! Maybe we should let those who wish to remain under the law do just that--remain under the law. And those who wish to remain under grace...you get the idea.

 

[Tonks]

Closed for staff review.