Adam's Flesh Could Not Be Saved

[mmksparbud]

No, it's not obvious, because 2 Corinthians 5 also says that if we're absent from the body we're present with the Lord.
Paul did not say he looked forward to dreamless sleep for thousands of years, he said he looked forward to departing.

Again---the next thing we know after dying will, be Christ calling us.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I like N.T. Wright's phrase "Life after life after death" He explains this a bit more in an interview he gave about bodily resurrection and why this is crucial to biblical hope:

”The biblical hope is for “new heavens and new earth,” that is, for the utter renewal and reordering of the Creator’s project—begun in Genesis 1 and 2 but aborted, or at least radically distorted, because of human rebellion. The Resurrection of Jesus is the launching of this new creation. His body seems to be at home in either heaven or earth or both, so that he embodies and encapsulates this new creation in himself. Those who belong to Jesus are thus signed on as new-creation people, not just as parts of new creation but (since this is what humans were made for) as agents of new creation.”

I am a big fan of Wright, I've recently been listening to the audio book version of Surprised by Hope. And I can definitely say so far that I highly recommend it.

He gets into two common problematic myths of the modern era; one being the myth of progress, the idea that the world is on a steady upclimb toward greater progress by human effort. That's the myth of the Enlightenment, and which was largely dashed to pieces by the horrors of the Holocaust. The Enlightenment myth of progress can be said to have died at Auschwitz, or at least, it cannot survive the dark reality of Auschwitz. The other myth, and perhaps the one far more common among Christians in our own time, is the myth that that everything used to be better, and things are getting steadily worse, and that there's simply nothing we can do and so we shouldn't bother to try.

That second myth, Wright identifies, as largely being a product of Paganism, the ancient Pagan myths frequently speak of a bygone human golden age, and that the further we get from that time, the worse things are getting. But as a modern myth, it is used by many as a justification for non-activity in the world. That if the world is going to hell, then why bother doing anything? And it forms a basis of false theology in which the Christian no longer sees him or herself as an agent of new creation in the world, but simply as one trying to escape the world. Hence the error of modern Dispensationalism and the false doctrine of the Rapture as a means of escaping the world by going to heaven, and the common poetic language of death as merely a kind of doorway to heavenly bliss.

Thus the myth of progress overestimates the ability of man and ignores the problem of sin; while the myth of (shall we say) regress is a myth that inhibits the Christian from living in hope within the world and being an agent of justice and new creation.

That the Church's place, as the Easter People, the people of the Gospel, is to be a people of hope and faith, of living in the hope of the resurrection, and living that hope out in the world. That is what it means to be salt and light, to be a city on a hill.

Now to be clear, I am adding many of my own thoughts and extrapolations here.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


If you wish to believe that God has millions of souls stuffed under His altar---you certainly are free to do so. I do not. It is obviously not literal.

Literally stuffed under an altar? No. Actually alive and in His presence? Yes.

Our God is God of the living, not the dead. The saints who have come before us are with the Lord until the day Christ returns and the dead are raised.

The Christian Church has never taught soul sleep, but rather the sleep of the body in death until its arousal and transformation in the resurrection.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

Again---the next thing we know after dying will, be Christ calling us.

Not what's taught in Revelation 6, or Luke 16.
Reconcile scripture don't cherrypick.

 

[mmksparbud]

Literally stuffed under an altar? No. Actually alive and in His presence? Yes.

Our God is God of the living, not the dead. The saints who have come before us are with the Lord until the day Christ returns and the dead are raised.

The Christian Church has never taught soul sleep, but rather the sleep of the body in death until its arousal and transformation in the resurrection.

-CryptoLutheran

Believe what you want. I do not believe God puts anyone under His altar, esp. not millions of them---that is not His idea of heaven and certainly not mine! Pretty crowded. And I personally do not care what "The Christian Church" teaches---who is that? I care about what the bible says. Jesus called death sleep several times. It is just that the consciousness, the life spark of the breath of God, returns to God and rests there until the day He returns and gives it back to us. The wicked dead will be resurrected also---unto their punishment and eternal death from which God will never awaken them again.

 

[mmksparbud]

Not what's taught in Revelation 6, or Luke 16.
Reconcile scripture don't cherrypick.

If you call millions of people under God's altar cherry picking---then I am! You can believe that I certainly will not. Lazarus was a parable not a treatise on the state of the dead. Jesus Himself said

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
Job 7:10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.


If God does not call you, you would never rise again. He calls the saved on the last day--He calls the lost, after the 1000 years unto punishment and eternal death.

 

[1an]

If you call millions of people under God's altar cherry picking---then I am! You can believe that I certainly will not. Lazarus was a parable not a treatise on the state of the dead. Jesus Himself said

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
Job 7:10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.


If God does not call you, you would never rise again. He calls the saved on the last day--He calls the lost, after the 1000 years unto punishment and eternal death.

For information. Those under the alter, are those who were martyred in the first tribulation period. Their salvation is secure. It will be a terrible time. (You probably knew that already.)
.

 

[prodromos]

If you wish to believe that God has millions of souls stuffed under His altar---you certainly are free to do so. I do not. It is obviously not literal.

Whereas Ecclesiastes 9:5 is obviously literal right? It's not poetic or any kind of genre that warrants careful interpretation especially in the light of other Scriptures, right?

Oh, BTW, how much space does a soul take up, given that it is not something physical? How much more space does a million souls take, or 100 million? Regardless, the souls are described as conscious and aware. Being under the alter of God is a description of their spiritual condition, which is one of blessedness, but they are conscious nonetheless.

 

[mmksparbud]

Whereas Ecclesiastes 9:5 is obviously literal right? It's not poetic or any kind of genre that warrants careful interpretation especially in the light of other Scriptures, right?

Oh, BTW, how much space does a soul take up, given that it is not something physical? How much more space does a million souls take, or 100 million? Regardless, the souls are described as conscious and aware. Being under the alter of God is a description of their spiritual condition, which is one of blessedness, but they are conscious nonetheless.

You must, of course, be a believer in going to hell or heaven directly upon death---which I do not. Too many verses that indicate otherwise. But to be fair---this thread is not about the state of the dead and I do not wish to be responsible for shutting down a thread due to going off topic. I'm in enough trouble with the mods here. There have been many, many threads on the state of the dead and I've probably been on most of them. Suffice it to say---I believe in all the verses that state there is no going directly to heaven or hell and that I do not believe in the immortality of the soul. I'll get on the next thread on the subject. This one is about Adam's flesh could not be saved.

 

[prodromos]

You must, of course, be a believer in going to hell or heaven directly upon death

Your assumption about my beliefs are completely wrong. Please read my response in the link below so you can avoid further embarassment.
Purgatory

If you've seen my response to a thread on Hell's population, youwould know that I believe Hell is currently empty, and will remain so until the 2nd coming of Christ.

 

[mmksparbud]

Your assumption about my beliefs are completely wrong. Please read my response in the link below so you can avoid further embarassment.
Purgatory

LOL! I have no embarrassment for to believe in a "foretaste of what they will receive" does imply a life immediately after death. Anyway---like I said---I'm in enough trouble with the mods. Back to subject.

 

[Jamdoc]

On that subject.. I decided to watch Joel Richardson and Dalton Thomas's Maranatha bible study on Revelation tonight and.. this episode popped up and Joel Richardson in this specific episode lays out the contrast between the Biblical world view and the Greek Philosophy world view (where people are getting this idea of physical = bad, incorporeal spirit existence = good from)

Interestingly enough, Socrates got that basic philosophy from a Demon.
.. and the church has been struggling with it ever since.

 

[Philip_B]

Then God said, ‘Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.’

So God created humankind in his image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.​

God blessed them, and God said to them, ‘Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.’ God said, ‘See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.’ And it was so. God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
Genesis 1:26-31​

The affirmation of creation, following the priestly account of the creation of humanity, in Genesis is quote powerful, and to follow the logic of the OP, would require you to see this as a non-physical creation, which is both counter intuitive and makes no sense of the account. It is far more complete to recognise that the divorcing of soul/spirit (gheist) and body (sarx) was not a way of thinking that was part of Hebrew culture. Such a thinking has been part of Greek thought since perhaps the Time of Socrates, and leaked into Hebrew thinking as a result of the Macedonian Empire, and Jewish diaspora.

Jesus came to redeem the whole of Adam, not a partial redemption, but the whole box and dice. If Jesus had only wanted to redeem the Spirit this could have been done at the baptism of John, which the sense of spiritual death and resurrection. The point of the story of Calvary is a real flesh and blood death, in order to accomplish a real flesh and blood redemption of the whole person.

This is exactly why we call it good news. Our life in now punctuated, not with a full stop, not with a question mark, more like a comma or a semi colon. There is more to follow. We will join with Angels and Archangels, and in this new reality things of great note to us here, including race, gender, wealth, power, bond or free, married or single, will have little moment for we will be ONE IN CHRIST.

 

[Hmm]

I am a big fan of Wright, I've recently been listening to the audio book version of Surprised by Hope. And I can definitely say so far that I highly recommend it.

I've read the book I'd recommend it too. I heard him say in an interview that he gets more emails about Surprised by Hope than the rest of his books combined.

Thus the myth of progress overestimates the ability of man and ignores the problem of sin; while the myth of (shall we say) regress is a myth that inhibits the Christian from living in hope within the world and being an agent of justice and new creation.

I agree, that is a sad consequence of Christians thinking like that. It even extends to not caring about the environment or ending third world debt because what's the point if the world is going to end soon?

Now to be clear, I am adding many of my own thoughts and extrapolations here.

God gave us a mind to use!

Hence the error of modern Dispensationalism and the false doctrine of the Rapture as a means of escaping the world by going to heaven

Going back to NT Wright, he says that the this view of the Rapture is a distortion of the metaphors Paul used for Jesus's second coming. He was using an image of an emperor visiting a colony or province, as Judea was of Rome, where the citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. So his image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead Jesus back to the newly remade world. Instead it's used to frighten people into some kind of distorted belief (my custom title is merely a joke btw!).

 

[Clare73]

I've read the book I'd recommend it too. I heard him say in an interview that he gets more emails about Surprised by Hope than the rest of his books combined.

I agree, that is a sad consequence of Christians thinking like that. It even extends to not caring about the environment or ending third world debt because what's the point if the world is going to end soon?

God gave us a mind to use!

Going back to NT Wright, he says that the this view of the Rapture is a distortion of the metaphors Paul used for Jesus's second coming. He was using an image of an emperor visiting a colony or province, as Judea was of Rome, where the citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. So his image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead Jesus back to the newly remade world.

Parousia

 

[ViaCrucis]

Going back to NT Wright, he says that the this view of the Rapture is a distortion of the metaphors Paul used for Jesus's second coming. He was using an image of an emperor visiting a colony or province, as Judea was of Rome, where the citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. So his image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead Jesus back to the newly remade world. Instead it's used to frighten people into some kind of distorted belief (my custom title is merely a joke btw!).

That's exactly right.

In his homilies on 1 Thessalonians St. John Chrysostom writes,

"If He is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge within. And upon the coming of an affectionate father, his children indeed, and those who are worthy to be his children, are taken out in a chariot, that they may see and kiss him; but those of the domestics who have offended remain within. We are carried upon the chariot of our Father. For He received Him up in the clouds, and 'we shall be caught up in the clouds.' Do you see how great is the honor? And as He descends, we go forth to meet Him, and, what is more blessed than all, so we shall be with Him." - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 8 on 1 Thessalonians (CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 8 on First Thessalonians (Chrysostom))

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Religiot]

This means of course, that the seed of sin was already present in Adam and Eve's flesh, even before they sinned. Corruption cannot inherit incorruption, like Apostle Paul said. The flesh body is for this present world; the spiritual body is for the world to come.

You've imputed sin to God, and denied the true source of sin, disobedience.

Not only do you ignore man's autonomy, but you also make God out to be the cause of sin.

The seed of sin is sown by Satan, not God.

I'm astonished at your presumption that your philosophy is 'basic bible teaching'.

The irony is, that actual basic bible teaching is that Satan sows the seed of sin (his words), but Christ sows the seed of life (His Word).

The philosophy you're on about, is purely man made conjecture rooted in misunderstanding the writings of Paul.

Without the harmony of the entire bible, these kinds of conclusions are inevitable.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Point actually is... that Scripture does not always reveal a Truth directly. The fact that all the kingdoms of this world having become those of The Father and His Christ is not a direct statement showing Christ's 2nd coming, but that's what it's about. God expects us to sharpen up when studying His Word, because He does not reveal all Truths in a direct manner, the deeper ones are often only by allegory, parable, proverb, etc. So the Bible student who refuses to grasp that will miss out on a lot of God's Truth that is for those on the "strong meat", and not for those still sucking the 'milk' of His Word (Hebrews 5).

While I agree that many truths are given us by allegory, parables and riddles; one must not contradict the Scripture black and white statements in gleaning these truths..Test the spirits and find proper discernment and wisdom by carefully testing everything against the Word...those straight-forward teachings found there cannot be negated.
Adam walked with God in spirit and flesh until he sinned and was cast out of the garden. It was his transgression which brought the curse of sin to all mankind. This is why Romans states that Adam was a pattern of one to come...though all men sinned by way of Adam, all men are saved by Christ. Christ reversed the curse.
Romans 5:15-17:
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

 

[Davy]

You really need to go back to the basics.

Talk to your pastor, assuming they have been properly trained they should be able to correct your confusion here.

What you are advocating for is the wholesale rejection of Christianity, and that's a problem--that you don't realize it's a problem demonstrates that you need to go back and learn basic theology and biblical teaching.

-CryptoLutheran

See my post #128 if you want to discuss what God's Word reveals about.

 

[Davy]

You've imputed sin to God, and denied the true source of sin, disobedience.

No I haven't. Satan is who sinned from the beginning, like Apostle John said. And that is when death started because of it. God simply made Adam in corrupted flesh with the ability to sin and die because of what Satan did in that old world.

It's Satan's fault, so you need to quit taking up for Satan! That's what you're doing when you refuse to put the blame on Satan for sin and death. And trying to say I'm blaming God for it is utter ignorance.