Adam ?

[Ken Rank]

Jesus said: Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I believe Jesus and not religious views. 2Co 5:8 Don't you know that Eternal Life means that you don't have to die? Your body does, but Not your Eternal Spirit. I shall NEVER die, thanks to Jesus. Amen?

You see things in black and white, words seem to only have one meaning for you. However, words have more than one meaning and even Yeshua himself "died." However, he raised from the dead showing a lack of permanence to death. Still, he died... as will you and I and everyone else because the wage of sin is death. Everyone dies...

 

[miknik5]

Well, we aren't perfect yet... we can still sin and we still die. We are perfected, changed, upon His return. What we have now is a deposit/ down payment in the form of the Holy Spirit (please look up 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5) that acts toward what we will be getting.

As the word says, that deposit is a guarantee of our inheritance and yes I know we’re not perfect yet. That’s why I put the word perfect in quotes. I said “perfect” And I know we won’t be made perfect until we stand in HIS PRESENCE And what hasn’t been made perfect will be made perfect in the twinkling of an eye

God didn't just become a God of grace once Yeshua came... God doesn't change, He has ALWAYS been a God of grace and ALWAYS been a God of Law. You can't read the story of Joseph and not see grace.

You can not read the story of Adam and not see grace. It’s what you mentioned to Aman which he never responded to. God knew Adam would fall didn’t HE? And yet HE still out if HIS grace ever present from the beginning crested man.

Really, we can't read Adam and not see grace for he was compelled to leave the garden which kept him from having access to the tree of life in a fallen state.

. Ken. Adam had no choice He was sent out and the way back in was blocked

As for your other points... even if they did not fully know and understand the prophecies doesn't mean they weren't looking for a redeemer.

i never said they weren’t

The first messianic prophecy, most agree, is Genesis 3:15. So, if Adam believed that and lived for that day... then how is that any different than us being born after looking back at the work Genesis 3:15 pointed to? Whether we look forward or back... we are still looking to Christ whether we fully understand the depth of his work, or not.

Otherwise, Moses, Abraham, Noach... those men included in Hebrews 11 as examples of FAITH are not saved? They burn in hell because of when they were born? That is not consistent with the character attributes of God.

Do you remember Romans 3:36 and Romans 11:32? Can you read them. Do you think those who look back, even as the LORD JESUS has come and the GOSPEL is preached, who are still waiting for “another messiah” not believing in JESUS, are also saved?

 

[miknik5]

My posts to your comments are hidden

I think you need to hit expand

 

[Ken Rank]

Do you remember Romans 3:36 and Romans 11:32? Can you read them. Do you think those who look back, even as the LORD JESUS has come and the GOSPEL is preached, who are still waiting for “another messiah” not believing in JESUS, are also saved?

Not necessarily.... I am simply saying that if somebody lived for God in faith looking forward to Yeshua, and we live for God in faith looking back... then you and David have something in common... you both lived for God in faith through messiah.

 

[miknik5]

Not necessarily.... I am simply saying that if somebody lived for God in faith looking forward to Yeshua, and we live for God in faith looking back... then you and David have something in common... you both lived for God in faith through messiah.

Romans 11 talks about the olive tree.

Are all grafted in?

 

[Ken Rank]

Romans 11 talks about the olive tree.

Are all grafted in?

Yes and no sis. I have a different view of Paul's commission and who Romans was written to than you do. Yes, it was written to people in Rome but my view isn't exactly mainstream and probably not good for this thread. Suffice to say, the olive tree is Israel, or Messiah... and likely both. And seeing his work is the only work that bridges the gap between us and the Father, between sin and death and perfection... then all must be grafted in from that perspective.

 

[Aman777]

You see things in black and white, words seem to only have one meaning for you. However, words have more than one meaning and even Yeshua himself "died." However, he raised from the dead showing a lack of permanence to death. Still, he died... as will you and I and everyone else because the wage of sin is death. Everyone dies...

False since Jesus is alive today. Jesus left this world but He will come back to save our Earth from total destruction. While Jesus was in the grave, He went to Hell to preach to those who died in the flood. Eph 4:8 Death is eternal separation from God.

 

[Ken Rank]

False since Jesus is alive today. Jesus left this world but He will come back to save our Earth from total destruction. While Jesus was in the grave, He went to Hell to preach to those who died in the flood. Eph 4:8 Death is eternal separation from God.

He still died in the flesh and dying in the flesh is what the wage of sin is. We all die Aman.... you will live on but make no mistake, your heart will, one day, stop working and you will await the resurrection. Isn't that the repeating NT point... resurrection? What exactly are you being resurrected from? Death!

 

[Ken Rank]

He still died in the flesh and dying in the flesh is what the wage of sin is. We all die Aman.... you will live on but make no mistake, your heart will, one day, stop working and you will await the resurrection. Isn't that the repeating NT point... resurrection? What exactly are you being resurrected from? Death!

@Aman777 You say "false" to me but the NT repeatedly states that the "dead will rise from their graves." The dead are anyone in Christ who died before his return... they will be raised... WE will be raised and perfected, changed, made incorruptible.

You make it harder on yourself by forcing one meaning on word with many meanings and applications.

 

[Aman777]

He still died in the flesh and dying in the flesh is what the wage of sin is. We all die Aman.... you will live on but make no mistake, your heart will, one day, stop working and you will await the resurrection. Isn't that the repeating NT point... resurrection? What exactly are you being resurrected from? Death!

The wages of sin is death or eternal separation from God. My point is that I will leave this world when my Spirit is released from these bars of flesh, to go to be with Jesus in the 3rd Heaven.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I am alive forevermore thanks to Jesus. I can hardly wait to see my loved ones in my perfect body. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

@Aman777 You say "false" to me but the NT repeatedly states that the "dead will rise from their graves." The dead are anyone in Christ who died before his return... they will be raised... WE will be raised and perfected, changed, made incorruptible.

You make it harder on yourself by forcing one meaning on word with many meanings and applications.

Sorry, but the dead are not the living. I am one of the living, thanks to Jesus. Amen?

 

[Ken Rank]

The wages of sin is death or eternal separation from God. My point is that I will leave this world when my Spirit is released from these bars of flesh, to go to be with Jesus in the 3rd Heaven.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I am alive forevermore thanks to Jesus. I can hardly wait to see my loved ones in my perfect body. Amen?

It doesn't say "eternal separation from God." You are taking Christian dogma and intermixing it with Scripture. The wages of sin is death... we will all die a physical death as punishment for sin. But we can have life eternal through Christ. Otherwise, the Apple of God's eye, the man after God's own heart (David) is eternally separated from God?

Again, and for the last time... the dead are raised in the resurrection and made incorruptible. That requires death to have taken place at least in the physical realm. If you don't agree... fine... but that is what Scripture says and that is what I am going to believe until you show me where Scripture DOESN'T say there is a resurrection of the dead in Christ.

 

[Aman777]

Again, and for the last time... the dead are raised in the resurrection and made incorruptible. That requires death to have taken place at least in the physical realm.

Correction: The dead are those who are judged by the Law. Christians are not judged by the Law. The dead in Christ are alive with Christ when they leave the physical body. They receive their incorruptible bodies at the Rapture. Until then, they are asleep in Christ. 1Th 4:15

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Ken Rank]

Correction: The dead are those who are judged by the Law. Christians are not judged by the Law. The dead in Christ are alive with Christ when they leave the physical body. They receive their incorruptible bodies at the Rapture. Until then, they are asleep in Christ. 1Th 4:15

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No... there are dead that Paul called, "the dead in Christ" who are resurrected from their GRAVE and who are changed and made incorruptible, given glorified bodied... AFTER they are resurrected. Thus, they are not the dead who have no hope as you propose.

You are holding on to a view that is not substantiated by Scripture. You are welcome to do that, but this dogmatic hold narrows the window through which God can teach you.

Be blessed.
Ken

 

[Aman777]

No... there are dead that Paul called, "the dead in Christ" who are resurrected from their GRAVE and who are changed and made incorruptible, given glorified bodied... AFTER they are resurrected. Thus, they are not the dead who have no hope as you propose.

I posted the "dead" or those who have NOT been born Spiritually. The dead in Christ are Christians who have left this Earth but still live with Jesus. They are absent from the body but present with the Lord. 2Co 5:8 At the Rapture, they will receive their perfect bodies. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

These immortal beings (Christians) now have their perfect bodies, like Adam's was before the fall. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We all get our perfect bodies and fly away with Jesus at the same time. Amen?

 

[Ken Rank]

I posted the "dead" or those who have NOT been born Spiritually. The dead in Christ are Christians who have left this Earth but still live with Jesus. They are absent from the body but present with the Lord. 2Co 5:8 At the Rapture, they will receive their perfect bodies. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

These immortal beings (Christians) now have their perfect bodies, like Adam's was before the fall. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We all get our perfect bodies and fly away with Jesus at the same time. Amen?

You keep saying "amen" as if I am supposed to agree with you. You have wasted a lot of our time trying to tell me we don't die. And then you post a verse that says "the dead in the Christ shall rise first" which means people who belong to him and who will have eternal life are being raised from the DEAD. I don't understand why you have spent so much time trying to prove otherwise.

 

[Aman777]

You keep saying "amen" as if I am supposed to agree with you. You have wasted a lot of our time trying to tell me we don't die. And then you post a verse that says "the dead in the Christ shall rise first" which means people who belong to him and who will have eternal life are being raised from the DEAD. I don't understand why you have spent so much time trying to prove otherwise.

It's because you seem to think that the "dead" are in their graves until Jesus returns. If so, then it's because they were never born again Spiritually. The "dead in Christ" are with Jesus 2Co 5:8. Do you actually believe that Jesus is in the grave with them? Or has Jesus gone to prepare a place for us as He told us? If so, then the dead in Christ are already with Jesus in the 3rd Heaven. Amen?

 

[Ken Rank]

It's because you seem to think that the "dead" are in their graves until Jesus returns. If so, then it's because they were never born again Spiritually. The "dead in Christ" are with Jesus 2Co 5:8. Do you actually believe that Jesus is in the grave with them? Or has Jesus gone to prepare a place for us as He told us? If so, then the dead in Christ are already with Jesus in the 3rd Heaven. Amen?

The bible says the dead in Christ rise from the grave when he returns... it says that, pretty much word for word. I think I will stick with that.

Be blessed.
Ken

 

[Aman777]

The bible says the dead in Christ rise from the grave when he returns... it says that, pretty much word for word. I think I will stick with that.

Be blessed.
Ken

1Th 4:13

¶
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

Today, they are present with the Lord in Heaven. When He comes, He will bring those who sleep in Jesus, with Him.

1Th 4:15 ¶ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Those who are dead in Christ or who sleep with Jesus will receive their perfect bodies. Their new immortal bodies will rise from the dust where they are today.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

 

[Eloy Craft]

God is God of the living not the dead. The soul is in heaven Glorified waiting to receive the body.
Both are true the dead will rise and they are in heaven.