Adam and Eve incorrectly blamed?

[Philosoft]

stupidity,no they did not have this excuse,foolish maybe.

Okay, rather than "stupid," let's call them "ignorant."

rebellion,maybe,for they did rebel against God they disobeyed Him and went against His word.

Why would they do that?

that was the problem they doubted God s word they took their faith from God and put it in a subtil serpent.

Well, that serpent must have been awfully persuasive.

How disrespectful and insulting is that.

Not so much, considering God set up the conditions in the Garden to essentially assure they would disobey.

the serpent was very cunning,but it doesn't change the fact that they had to doubt God to believe him.

Why would they doubt God? They basically lived in perfection. What could the serpent have offered them that they didn't already have?

 

[love&forgiveness]

they chose to ignore His word,if that's what your saying.

they rebelled against God because they gave into temptation.

yes the serpent was very persuasive,but this was no excuse.

they didn't have to disobey,they had a choice,the same as we do today.if we put our faith in God everything can be perfect.

the serpent offered them the knowledge of good and evil and told them they would be as gods.here's the greed.

 

[Philosoft]

they chose to ignore His word,if that's what your saying.

they rebelled against God because they gave into temptation.

But why would they have done that? What was their motivation?

yes the serpent was very persuasive,but this was no excuse.

Well, given the likely abject ignorance of A&E, I'm inclined to consider it some excuse.

they didn't have to disobey,they had a choice,the same as we do today.if we put our faith in God everything can be perfect.

But we don't usually make random choices, do we? Presumably, they had some internal motivation to make their choice.

the serpent offered them the knowledge of good and evil and told them they would be as gods.here's the greed.

Ah, here we go - they were greedy. Now we need to know how A&E became greedy. Any ideas?

 

[Dyrwen]

They knew no better. The answer to each of those. Yet somehow I doubt he'll conceed to that.

 

[love&forgiveness]

the serpent made knowledge of good and evil sound enticing , and they wanted it ,well eve at least ,they wanted what the serpent offered even though it was forbidden by the one who gave them everything ,you can say He didn't give them this knowledge but it was not a good thing for them to have at that time.
they wanted more in a perfect world.

You seem to forget Adam and Eve had two choices , we today as descendents of Adam and Eve are now judged by their mistake , for if Adam and Eve couldn't chose the right way-Gods way who's to say that we would have.We are judged by their mistake,and now have to prove that we are not like them but can chose God above temptation.We are not to give into temptation like they did, that's the point.You can't change the past and others mistakes but you yourself can choose the right way Gods way which is perfect.
Jesus was sent to show us the right way and to forgive us for our sins that we were under so we may start again in perfection and this time by chosing Him ourselves we will no longer be under the sin brought on from Adam,we may make our own choices forgiven in the blood of the sacrificial lamb for us sinners.Christ died for us so we can be free from the sin of Adam and that which came from it.Before Christ we were all sinners from Adam, born into a world of sin ,but if we put our trust in God through Christ we may be as Adam was before he ate Of the tree, purified in the love of Christ so we are then able to start afresh washed from every sin with the blood of Christ, including Adams.We are a new creation born into perfection , just like Adam was.
You may then say we are still in a world of sin as it is not the same perfect world Eden was ,but it can be for if we are in Christ we are in perfection ,and if we keep our faith in Him no sin can touch us.Yes we will still be tempted as Adam was , but now in Christ we are not under the burden of Adams sin and our past sin but are pure and perfect in Christ , whether we remain this way is our choice the same as it was Adams.God only gave Adam and Eve everything they could possibly need for that life , and He will also give us everything we need for this life all we have to do is keep our faith in Him and trust Him foremost for He is the Almighty and His way is perfect.

God bless.
paul.

 

[Infinity's Dice]

love&forgiveness, is there any reason that you feel you must use such a bloody huge font?

 

[love&forgiveness]

yes i have bad eye sight and the small print gives me a headache.

 

[Infinity's Dice]

Fair enough.

If you use Internet Explorer, you can go to the view menu at the top of the screen to change the "text size" to something more readable.

If you don't have I.E., check out the help message to learn to do the same thing with your particular browser.

Alternatively, if you have a mouse with a scroll-wheel, you can hold down the ctrl button and roll said button up and down to change the font's size to something better as well.

I'm not sure why unnecessarily large fonts irritate me, except:

a) It reminds me of USING ALL CAPS, which in netquitette, is shouting, and rude.

b) I used to frequent a chat room in which you could select your font type, and people who wanted to annoy other people would almost invariably select the largest font possible.

But, do whatever the heck you want.

Sorry this was so off topic. Anyhow, let's continue discussing Adam and Eve.






PS, did Adam and Eve have navels?

If so, why?

 

[love&forgiveness]

i'll alter my font for you if it bothers you that much.
did adam and eve have navels.
good question ,but also pointless.
maybe not ,i don't know ,does it matter?

 

[Crazy Liz]

I think it takes a leap of faith to believe that.
Adam and Eve were created in the image of God meaning that God's moral attributes were within them such as reason, goodness, kindness, etc.
They were fully developed adults not infants with no sense of right and wrong.

No, I think it takes a leap of logic to believe what you state above. How did you arrive at the conclusion that the image of God = having God's moral attributes? Once you arrived at that conclusion, why did you choose not to test it against other scriptures (like Genesis 3) that appear to contradict your hypothesis?

Read Genesis 3:22-24. Why did God drive them out of the garden?

God didn't say they knew good and evil before they ate from the tree. Scripture isn't silent on this question, leaving us to fill in the blanks with logic, reason and imagination. When God speaks in Genesis 3, God says exactly the opposite.

 

[Crazy Liz]

You have no way to prove that they had no concept of right and wrong except by speculation.
Genesis says that after God created the world he saw that it was good.
He surely would have taught his crown of creation what good and evil was.

You are only assuming they had no knowledge of what death was.
Since they walked with God it is completely safe to say that God taught them what death was even though it had not happened to anything yet.

Pot calling the kettle black?

Can't you admit you are assuming and speculating when you say they knew what death was and what good and evil were before they ate the fruit?

 

[Crazy Liz]

This is why I don't take Bible stories like this literally. It causes too many problems.

Taking them metaphorically doesn't. Of course, then you have the problem of which of the possible meanings is the right one... and then the question of whether there is only one right one, or many.

Whether you take this story literally or metaphorically, I think it teaches that in spite of all the warnings we might receive, humans don't really know the difference between good and evil until after they have done evil and seen the consequences. Of course, by then, they have no way to "undo" and get out of their sinful condition by themselves.

 

[Crazy Liz]

How is it temptation, if they did not know what was right or wrong? Can you honestly be tempted to something, if you do not know of any consequence to it? If you have had no experience to the issue at hand, are you capable of saying "That is wrong" without ever experiencing or hearing of anything to relate this to it?

Their hearts had no idea whether it was right or wrong. As Pooty stated in a sort: If this guy named God says not to do this, and I don't, then I should be ok. But hey, this guy says God didn't tell me everything, he must know more than God, I better take his advice.

God said not to eat it, he never told them what would happen to their minds, besides that they would die. I also doubt they knew what "death" was seeing as they hadn't experienced it to any extent, as they are the first 2 people ever. They have experienced no loss and know it not to be a bad thing. Death is just another word to the first two people ever around.

Why didn't they try it in God's presence? Probably because they were so naive` enough to think that the serpent who apparently has more knowledge than God (whom is merely their creator) would probably be safer to trust. They tried it out, and seemingly, did something without truly knowing who to trust.

Interesting points. I think what you are saying is that if they had no knowledge of good and evil, they wouldn't know what a lie was. They would have no reason to be suspicious of the serpent.

 

[love&forgiveness]

they should have doubted the serpent not the almighty loving Creator ,He is not merely the creator ,He is the great all powerful God offering us love and perfection all we have to do is chose His way not a serpents way or another mans way or our way ,no it has to be His way.
His way is the truth ,His way is perfect ,His way is the only way ,any other way will end in destruction.

 

[Crazy Liz]

they should have doubted the serpent not the almighty loving Creator ,He is not merely the creator ,He is the great all powerful God offering us love and perfection all we have to do is chose His way not a serpents way or another mans way or our way ,no it has to be His way.
His way is the truth ,His way is perfect ,His way is the only way ,any other way will end in destruction.

Isn't it presumptuous of us to judge what they "should have" done? We can discern (or try to discern) who to trust and who to doubt because we know the difference between good and evil and the difference between truth and lies.

Imagine yourself as naive and innocent. You have never heard a lie before. How would you be likely to respond the very first time someone tells you a lie?

There are many different levels on which the humans in this story come to know the difference between good and evil.

 

[love&forgiveness]

eve was the one who originally sinned adam followed her ,but they both doubted God ,after He had given them a perfect life ,if we don't know God do we really know what's good and evil ?if we don't know God how do we disobey Him?
sin was in this world before there was any law ,where they before the law innocent?
sin is actually ,disobeying God ,or chosing our way or someone elses over His.
they knew the love of God better than anyone ,but they still disobeyed.
what i've said earlier is that we are judged by adams sin as we are all just as guilty for who's to say we wouldn't have done the same thing.
we have a choice now to chose God through Christ ,yes we are more guilty than adam if we don't ,but what He did was still against God.
adam had two choices.
if i brought a child up and gave it all the love i have and told them to do as they liked in the house but don't touch one item ,if someone else who they didn't even know came in and when i was in the other room and told them to touch that one item ,and told them i was a liar ,wouldn't this child know it was wrong to touch this item, i has it's father and having giving them love them having known my love ,they would know in their hearts it was wrong to go against my word.
that's the best i can explain it at the moment ,may not be a perfect example.

 

[Thwingly]

Hello everyone,

Before I begin my response, I must confess, I decided not to read through all the many posts on this thread, rather I resolved to give a clean concise answer, because it looks like the question isn't being answered. Even in your post love&forgiveness, your analogy presupposes that the child knows right from wrong. I think, however, I can hit the nail on the head.

Adam and Eve both had the ability to reason. You do not have to experience something to know it. Therefore, Adam and Eve could have rationally came to the conclusion that it would be wrong to disobey God, because he is sovereign. A person does not need to shoot himself in the foot to know that it would hurt. While Adam wouldn't have known what it was like to die, he could reason that he should not die. Since God knows evil fully without engaging in evil, and since man was created in God's image, it is easily possibly that man knew (not fully however) evil, just not experientally. I'd like to know what people think of this idea.

Thank you all!

-Thwingly

 

[love&forgiveness]

don't know ,i can see what your saying.
i think He knew God and i think God would have give him some understanding of what death meant ,otherwise why say it.
i think as we have to love God from the heart ,i think they would have known in their hearts that it was wrong or they would have felt the feeling you feel as a child disobeying your parents ,even though children may have some understanding of right and wrong ,although that's usually only what they are taught by their parents words.
adam and eve were not children and God is not human ,so as their understanding would be greater than a child ,and as Gods word is much greater than any mans surely adam and eve understood His will and how He wanted them to interperate it.
surely they wasn't innocent in their hearts taking of the fruit.
God bless.
paul

 

[Crazy Liz]

You do not have to experience something to know it. Therefore, Adam and Eve could have rationally came to the conclusion that it would be wrong to disobey God, because he is sovereign. A person does not need to shoot himself in the foot to know that it would hurt.

How would a person who has never felt pain know it would hurt to shoot himself in the foot?

 

[Crazy Liz]

ISTM it's hard for most of us who know the difference between good and evil to imagine what it would be like not to know this.

I'm trying to think of how scripture speaks elsewhere of knowing good and evil, and I think at least one other passage indicates it is a predictable stage of human development:

Then he said, "Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. The LORD will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father's house--days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah."
--Isaiah 7:13-17

Maybe I'm bootstrapping here, but when I think of this passage in Isaiah in connection with Genesis 3, the next scripture that comes to my mind is Matthew 18:3:

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.