How can this be when the serpent was there sinning like crazy before they ate?
While there's a tradition that they're in heaven, no one really knows. But their sin has been said to not be the worst sin, even though its the granddaddy of all sin and opened the door for all the rest that followed. But regardless of how serious, God's plan of salvation was in place before He created Adam & Eve. And planet earth, as an exile from Him into a world where man's will reigns, with all the resulting sin that we observe and experience everyday along with the uncertainty about one's future existence that accompanies this lost and exiled state, is a place of education and formation rather than merely punishment because here we may learn what we missed, what we lost, especially when revelation and grace also come onto the scene. Here we may develop a hunger and thirst for the justice and truth and righteous that are so often lacking in the world of man. Here we may begin to search for something more, something 'bigger" than ourselves and the values and offerings of this world.I lost my isp so I will not be able to follow the posts much but I will check in when I can. I am serious about this. It brings up another question that I may bring up later. Care to expand on your yes or no answer? Please do.
Thanks for posting.
I lost my isp so I will not be able to follow the posts much but I will check in when I can. I am serious about this. It brings up another question that I may bring up later. Care to expand on your yes or no answer? Please do.
Thanks for posting.
Your opinion is not based on fact, history, or Truth.Enoch was one of the saints of the OT - and was translated - taken directly to heaven without dying. But like Noah - he did not write a single word of scripture. So while it is certain that some splinter of his teaching survives out to 5000 years later via tradition - much of it is interpolated with hellenistic thought that was easily inserted since there was no Hebrew text to deal with as if it had been preserved from the days of Enoch.
It already had the literal description of it written in the Book of Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, as Jude the womb brother of Jesus names him.Sheol is an unknown indiscriminate place of the dead. it's like a door of death that all must pass through but what's on the other side no one knows. this reflects the ignorance of the OT with regards to the afterlife. The account of the rich man and Lazarus does not use the word Sheol it uses the word Hades to describe the punishment part of the afterlife. What is Hades? Like Sheol it is also an indiscriminate place of the dead but unlike Sheol is it not left unarticulated or unknown and there is a lot of written account as to what Hades looks like. To start it's a borrowed term from Greek mythology where Hades is the underworld and its god also is named Hades. Clearly, Jesus doesn't intend the mythology but he still uses the term to describe a place of the dead reserved for punishment that we can be saved from. This small account has more information on the afterlife than the sum of the entire OT does on Sheol and is like Jesus opens the door of Sheol and the perspective is from the inside.
But as to it's physical descriptors we need to take it with a grain of salt and understand how they are being used and why. the goal of this account is not to describe these places or to teach us what these places look like, the goal of the account to show the place of honour given to Lazarus and the place of dishonour given to the rich man which is a reverse of how their lives were and an unexpected result; a detail aimed at the phrases listening in. Lazarus is said to be at the side of Abraham and this is a reference to Lazarus being counted as a son of Abraham and a position of high honour where the rich man is removed from Abraham's presence and is rejected as a son and along with that has no claim to an inheritance as a true son. The account also foreshadows Christ's own resurrection. So there is a lot going on in the account but literal descriptors of these places or how they are organized I don't think is one of them and when this is all we can see we've missed the point completely of the account.
Enoch is a product of Jewish Hellenization. the Hellenistic period is from 323 BC to about 33 BC and it is characterized by Greek influence spreading across the ancient world. This is happening essentially after the death of Alexander the Great until the Roman Empire takes root. Judea was at the front lines of these Hellenistic kingdoms changing hands many times and the product of which are diasporas and Hellenized Jews who lose the ability to speak Hebrew and things like the Septuagint emerge for Greek-speaking Jews. The book of Enoch falls right in the middle of this and is a prime candidate for Hellenization. So the fact that hades in Enoch look like a Greek version is because it had greek influence. The concept that Enoch presents about the afterlife is far more detailed and articulated than the sum of the entire old testament. As I have said, Sheol in the OT is unknown and mysterious like a closed door, all must pass through but no one knows what's on the other side and anyone who says otherwise is not reading the OT. Very often Sheol is used as a type of synonym for death itself. This doesn't immediately discredit the book of Enoch but it does mean the book has likely gone through Hellenization of its own and if it looks and sounds Greek that means it probably is Greek.written in the Book of Enoch the prophet
You have no facts to prove your opinion, but the Word of God tells us, in Genesis 4:10, that the voice of Cain's blood -his soul- was crying out to YHWH "from the earth"Enoch is a product of Jewish Hellenization. the Hellenistic period is from 323 BC to about 33 BC and it is characterized by Greek influence spreading across the ancient world. This is happening essentially after the death of Alexander the Great until the Roman Empire takes root. Judea was at the front lines of these Hellenistic kingdoms changing hands many times and the product of which are diasporas and Hellenized Jews who lose the ability to speak Hebrew and things like the Septuagint emerge for Greek-speaking Jews. The book of Enoch falls right in the middle of this and is a prime candidate for Hellenization. So the fact that hades in Enoch look like a Greek version is because it had greek influence. The concept that Enoch presents about the afterlife is far more detailed and articulated than the sum of the entire old testament. As I have said, Sheol in the OT is unknown and mysterious like a closed door, all must pass through but no one knows what's on the other side and anyone who says otherwise is not reading the OT. Very often Sheol is used as a type of synonym for death itself. This doesn't immediately discredit the book of Enoch but it does mean the book has likely gone through Hellenization of its own and if it looks and sounds Greek that means it probably is Greek.
And all you have is the extra biblical pseudepigrapha 2nd century BC work as your source to affirm this. Nothing in the OT remotely demonstrates this type of knowledge and if Enoch wrote it you would think Abraham, Moses and all the prophets would be better informed, instead the knowledge of Sheol exists only in ignorance in the OT.You have no facts to prove your opinion
Apparently a tradition claims Adam was buried at the same spot where Christ was crucified and as Christ's blood dripped on the soil and was absorbed until it finally reached Adam's remains Christ's blood resurrected him. I don't know where the source is from or what traditions holds to it but I've heard the account several times. Since the the biblical narrative doesn't tell us what happened to Adam traditions are the only sources.They went to Sheol or Hades. In the Orthodox Icons of the Resurrection Christ is seen pulling Adam and Eve out of their graves as a symbol of the redemptive power of the Resurrection.
View attachment 297447
Apparently a tradition claims Adam was buried at the same spot where Christ was crucified and as Christ's blood dripped on the soil and was absorbed until it finally reached Adam's remains Christ's blood resurrected him. I don't know where the source is from or what traditions holds to it but I've heard the account several times. Since the the biblical narrative doesn't tell us what happened to Adam traditions are the only sources.
The devil brought sin into the world and not Adam and Eve.I lost my isp so I will not be able to follow the posts much but I will check in when I can. I am serious about this. It brings up another question that I may bring up later. Care to expand on your yes or no answer? Please do.
Thanks for posting.
But for all purposes they brought it to the world as is taught.
I lost my isp so I will not be able to follow the posts much but I will check in when I can. I am serious about this. It brings up another question that I may bring up later. Care to expand on your yes or no answer? Please do.
Thanks for posting.
Nobody is in heaven or hell
I lost my isp so I will not be able to follow the posts much but I will check in when I can. I am serious about this. It brings up another question that I may bring up later. Care to expand on your yes or no answer? Please do.
Thanks for posting.
We don't know, but there is some indication that they were redeemed.
In the Old Testament, animal sacrifice was symbolic of the true Sacrifice yet to come.
Abel knew to offer an animal sacrifice.
If Abel learned it from Dad & Mom, their sacrifices would have been satisfied by Jesus, too.
they went to paradise part of hell under earth , both damned and future saved people would go below earth into two separate places , till Christ died and paid the price for these looking for himI lost my isp so I will not be able to follow the posts much but I will check in when I can. I am serious about this. It brings up another question that I may bring up later. Care to expand on your yes or no answer? Please do.
Thanks for posting.