When did the Old Covenant COMPLETELY end?


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keras

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Daniel 9:27 plainly states that a treaty will be made between a leader and 'many' people.
This, or anything like it was never done between the Romans and the Jews. It still awaits a future fulfilment, as does the rest of that verse.
What is also undeniable, is the gap from the completion of the 69th 'week', when Jesus died and was Resurrected, until the 70th commences with that treaty. We have had that gap, almost 2000 years!

The idea that the 70th 'week' is past is refuted by Daniel 9:24, which remains unfulfilled.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Daniel 9:27 plainly states that a treaty will be made between a leader and 'many' people.
This, or anything like it was never done between the Romans and the Jews. It still awaits a future fulfilment, as does the rest of that verse.
What is also undeniable, is the gap from the completion of the 69th 'week', when Jesus died and was Resurrected, until the 70th commences with that treaty. We have had that gap, almost 2000 years!

The idea that the 70th 'week' is past is refuted by Daniel 9:24, which remains unfulfilled.

How so?
 
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jgr

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Daniel 9:27 plainly states that a treaty will be made between a leader and 'many' people.
This, or anything like it was never done between the Romans and the Jews. It still awaits a future fulfilment, as does the rest of that verse.
What is also undeniable, is the gap from the completion of the 69th 'week', when Jesus died and was Resurrected, until the 70th commences with that treaty. We have had that gap, almost 2000 years!

The idea that the 70th 'week' is past is refuted by Daniel 9:24, which remains unfulfilled.

Unfulfilled only to the futurist.

Fulfilled to everyone else.
 
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Dave L

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So you voted, "On the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was first poured out?" That is a long-time view of most commentaries I must admit. But I think we should also consider the significance of the Gentile pentecost 3½ years after.
Hi Christian, great article and media. I voted AD70. Because those circumcised before Calvary were legit physical Jews and Israel. But nothing remained to replace them after Calvary without circumcision. These would be those whom the apostles tried to reach. But many converted to the New Covenant at Pentecost, already born again like Lydia while Jews.
 
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keras

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Unfulfilled only to the futurist.

Fulfilled to everyone else.
Daniel 9:24 is only seen as fulfilled by those who allegorize, spiritualize or just biff it into history.
We still await an end to sin, everlasting righteousness, prophecy finalized and the Holy Place anointed.

Thinking it is fulfilled, is a big question mark on people, on their ability to even read plain scripture.
 
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jgr

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Thinking it is fulfilled, is a big question mark on people, on their ability to even read plain scripture.

So a clear majority of the historical defenders of the true faith for over seventeen centuries couldn't read plain Scripture?

But you can?
 
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Bruce Leiter

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The opening post is my response to a common assumption that the Old Covenant ended when the Jewish temple was destroyed in AD 70.

There have been several misconceptions concerning the forty-year period between the crucifixion of Christ and the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans in AD 70. Both arise from competing interpretations of Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks. (Daniel 9:24-27)
  • The first misconception comes from those who believe that Daniel’s 70th week was unhooked from the other weeks and sent to the future. In their argument with those who say that the weeks were contiguous they ask, “but how can the 70th week stretch over forty years to include the events of Christ’s ministry as well as the destruction of Jerusalem?” (verse 27)
The answer is quite simple. The fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple did not take place within the actual seventy weeks; the prophet was simply providing information of the aftermath to the weeks in order to explain what the eventual outcome would be.

View attachment 270805
  • The second misconception comes from those who wish to magnify the importance of the AD 70 event. Their reasoning is that sacrifice of animals completely stopped then. Therefore, that must have been when the Old Covenant completely ceased! Tied into this reasoning is their interpretation of the ‘last days.’ They are the days (in their view) that lead up to the termination of the Mosaic order in AD 70.
I would like us to discuss this second point with any who are interested. In the meanwhile, please do the poll: (up to 3 answers allowed)

I have a different take on this question. Colossians 2:6-15 describes the ending of the law's control over us, including the replacement of circumcision with baptism by Jesus' death on the cross. Furthermore, the old covenant's principles like love for God and our neighbors continue into the new covenant, but its outward, national law is replaced with principles for Christian gratitude for what Jesus has done for us.
 
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keras

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So a clear majority of the historical defenders of the true faith for over seventeen centuries couldn't read plain Scripture?

But you can?
I am not talking about anyones faith, that is not in question.
We can all read the prophesies, but not all can understand them. Plainly evidenced by the huge variety of different interpretations.
I have prayed for understanding and to an extent; have received it. The main requirement is to put aside all theories and false teachings. Isaiah 29:9-12 tells us this.

So when I see people say that prophesies like Daniel 9:24 is fulfilled, it is quite evident they have been deceived, as we are told many would be.
 
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jgr

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I am not talking about anyones faith, that is not in question.
We can all read the prophesies, but not all can understand them. Plainly evidenced by the huge variety of different interpretations.
I have prayed for understanding and to an extent; have received it. The main requirement is to put aside all theories and false teachings. Isaiah 29:9-12 tells us this.

So when I see people say that prophesies like Daniel 9:24 is fulfilled, it is quite evident they have been deceived, as we are told many would be.

So a clear majority of the historical defenders of the true faith for over seventeen centuries have been deceived?

But you haven't?
 
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keras

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So a clear majority of the historical defenders of the true faith for over seventeen centuries have been deceived?

But you haven't?
If you cared to actually read my articles, you will find that I simply use the Prophetic Word as it is Written. To help explain it, I quote other prophesies and with the benefit of hindsight and modern knowledge, without the detraction of the many theories, fanciful ideas and guesswork of so called experts, it is possible to come to a fair understanding of what God has planned for the world and His people in particular.
I don't claim to be inerrant and have made some bad mistakes, in timing esp. But I quite confidently say that the next prophesied event will be the Lord's Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal world changer.

THEN; the Lord will make the New Covenant with His faithful people, as they go to live in all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24-26, +
 
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Douggg

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Here is a more detailed diagram showing the sequence of events during the 70th week. Please take a moment to look at the references.

View attachment 270860
I don't understand the chart. Where are the 7 years (the 70th week)?

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem riding a donkey, hailed as the messiah, in John 12:12-15.* Four days later he was crucified, cutoff.**

*7weeks + 62weeks to messiah. *Then cutoff. Then confirmation of the covenant for 7 years. future, yet to come, but close.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi Christian, great article and media. I voted AD70. Because those circumcised before Calvary were legit physical Jews and Israel. But nothing remained to replace them after Calvary without circumcision. These would be those whom the apostles tried to reach. But many converted to the New Covenant at Pentecost, already born again like Lydia while Jews.

But circumcision is never equated with being a true Israelite, one of the elect or of God's remnant. It was always circumcision of the heart (true salvation).
 
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jgr

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If you cared to actually read my articles, you will find that I simply use the Prophetic Word as it is Written. To help explain it, I quote other prophesies and with the benefit of hindsight and modern knowledge, without the detraction of the many theories, fanciful ideas and guesswork of so called experts, it is possible to come to a fair understanding of what God has planned for the world and His people in particular.
I don't claim to be inerrant and have made some bad mistakes, in timing esp. But I quite confidently say that the next prophesied event will be the Lord's Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal world changer.

THEN; the Lord will make the New Covenant with His faithful people, as they go to live in all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24-26, +

No one is questioning your sincerity or dedication.

But that of the pioneers of the faith is of no less depth, in addition to which they paid for the defense of truth with their lives by the thousands.

The virtually unanimous witness of the saints, for over 17 centuries, to the fulfillment of prophetic proclamation, in particular in this instance to Daniel 9:24, cannot be dismissed.

You must come to a recognition of the faith, vision, wisdom, and sacrifice of the historical defenders of the faith, and their indispensable contributions to the very survival of that faith, and to the spiritual liberties that we enjoy today.

A commitment to God's ageless truth demands no less.
 
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keras

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No one is questioning your sincerity or dedication.

But that of the pioneers of the faith is of no less depth, in addition to which they paid for the defense of truth with their lives by the thousands.

The virtually unanimous witness of the saints, for over 17 centuries, to the fulfillment of prophetic proclamation, in particular in this instance to Daniel 9:24, cannot be dismissed.

You must come to a recognition of the faith, vision, wisdom, and sacrifice of the historical defenders of the faith, and their indispensable contributions to the very survival of that faith, and to the spiritual liberties that we enjoy today.

A commitment to God's ageless truth demands no less.
My commitment is to the ageless truth of the Bible.
All the ECF's, the commentators and todays scholars have the same drawback; It has been impossible for them to properly understand Bible prophecy. Jesus said: It is your will, Father to hide these things from the wise and learned..... Matthew 11:25 and Daniel 12:4 & 10 says; the Book [of prophecy] is to be kept sealed until the time of the end and only then, just a few will understand.

So, no matter how qualified, in worldly terms, the support is that you have for a fulfilled Seventh 'week', I reject them and I do it because Revelation is so clear about the last half of that 'week', the final 3 1/2 years, or 42 months, or 1260 days, that culminate in the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Thanks for the good poll response, and the many posts. :wave:I would now like to explain why I had 2 votes to the poll question, when did the Old Covenant COMPLETELY end?
  • When Jesus said, “It is finished” and the temple curtain torn down (and)
  • Over the full 7 years of the seventieth week, including the last half.
My reason for these 2 responses is to rebut a wrong idea that the AD 70 event ended the Old Covenant. Hard core Preterists say the Old Covenant ended in AD 70, and moderate Partial Preterists suggest a gradual closing of the O.C. over 40 years following the Cross. Both groups speak of this period as the ‘last days’ and, in so doing, muddle the biblical understanding of ‘last days’ references to the events preceding Jesus’ (yet future) return.

The prophet Daniel tell us with absolute precision when the Old Covenant would end! “Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city …” (Daniel 9:24) He didn’t say 69 weeks; he didn’t say 69½ weeks; he said 70 weeks. That’s 490 years. So, the Old Covenant fully ended in AD 34, including the last half of the 70th week. (See diagram post #1)

The reason why most of us said it finished at the ‘temple curtain’ is because 4 of the 6 promises of Daniel were fulfilled at that grand climax – transgression finished; our sins taken away; reconciliation to God; Christ’s righteousness imputed to us. However, the last 2 clauses were fulfilled gradually over the seventieth week including the last 3½ years.

And the fact that animal sacrifice persisted until the temple’s destruction does not infer a transition between the Old and New Covenants! All it shows was the defiance of those who rejected Messiah. Daniel 9:27 describes it as an “overspreading abomination,” so we should not use the Jews disobedience as an argument to support our wish to magnify the significance of AD 70. (Im speaking to part prets)

More tomorrow after a sleep. :yawn:
 
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Douggg

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Thanks for the good poll response, and the many posts. :wave:I would now like to explain why I had 2 votes to the poll question, when did the Old Covenant COMPLETELY end?
  • When Jesus said, “It is finished” and the temple curtain torn down (and)
  • Over the full 7 years of the seventieth week, including the last half.
My reason for these 2 responses is to rebut a wrong idea that the AD 70 event ended the Old Covenant. Hard core Preterists say the Old Covenant ended in AD 70, and moderate Partial Preterists suggest a gradual closing of the O.C. over 40 years following the Cross. Both groups speak of this period as the ‘last days’ and, in so doing, muddle the biblical understanding of ‘last days’ references to the events preceding Jesus’ (yet future) return.

The prophet Daniel tell us with absolute precision when the Old Covenant would end! “Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city …” (Daniel 9:24) He didn’t say 69 weeks; he didn’t say 69½ weeks; he said 70 weeks. That’s 490 years. So, the Old Covenant fully ended in AD 34, including the last half of the 70th week. (See diagram post #1)

The reason why most of us said it finished at the ‘temple curtain’ is because 4 of the 6 promises of Daniel were fulfilled at that grand climax – transgression finished; our sins taken away; reconciliation to God; Christ’s righteousness imputed to us. However, the last 2 clauses were fulfilled gradually over the seventieth week including the last 3½ years.

And the fact that animal sacrifice persisted until the temple’s destruction does not infer a transition between the Old and New Covenants! All it shows was the defiance of those who rejected Messiah. Daniel 9:27 describes it as an “overspreading abomination,” so we should not use the Jews disobedience as an argument to support our wish to magnify the significance of AD 70. (Im speaking to part prets)

More tomorrow after a sleep. :yawn:
Gedge, in addition to your timeline chart, could you please provide another timeline charter of the 1260 days, the 42 months, the 3 1/2 days, the time,times, half time in Revelation - that would coincide with your view of the 70th week?

I think you will find it impossible, because the 70th week is still future.
 
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Dave L

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Gedge, in addition to your timeline chart, could you please provide another timeline charter of the 1260 days, the 42 months, the 3 1/2 days, the time,times, half time in Revelation - that would coincide with your view of the 70th week?

I think you will find it impossible, because the 70th week is still future.
Douggg. The reason you cannot reconcile anything with Revelation is because you are a futurist. And are trying to make clear, mostly fulfilled scripture match your idea about what the symbolic scriptures say. That's your problem.

If you look at what the symbols represent, much of Revelation has been or is being fulfilled. Looking for the symbols to materialize is futile.
 
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Norbert L

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I would like us to discuss this second point with any who are interested. In the meanwhile, please do the poll: (up to 3 answers allowed)
I didn't do the poll because of this statement given to Jesus just prior to his last ascension to Heaven.

"So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” Acts of the Apostles 1:6

That statement states that the kingdom was already NOT present at the time the Temple was standing with its' old covenant animal sacrifices. Considering Jesus' answer it gets even more blurry as to the state of the OC.

So in regards to the question, "AD 30 to AD 70 – end of Old Covenant?" the behavior of the first Christians and how they viewed the state of the OC/Israel doesn't strike me as something that strictly ended for their Christian practices of going into their Jewish temple. Acts 21:26. That would end much later than 70 AD because the OC still allows for the Tent as well. So 135 AD when the Jews were completely banished from forming a nation state under the OC in the land of Israel. This starts getting even more befuddling in my mind as to the end of the Old Covenant.
 
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Douggg

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Douggg. The reason you cannot reconcile anything with Revelation is because you are a futurist. And are trying to make clear, mostly fulfilled scripture match your idea about what the symbolic scriptures say. That's your problem.

If you look at what the symbols represent, much of Revelation has been or is being fulfilled. Looking for the symbols to materialize is futile.
There are symbolic symbols in Revelation, yes.

But the 1260 days, the 42 months, the 3 1/2 days, the time, times, half times is (are) not one(s) of them.
 
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Dave L

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There are symbolic symbols in Revelation, yes.

But the 1260 days, the 42 months, the 3 1/2 days, the time, times, half times is (are) not one(s) of them.
I believe your starting point is off making the clear passages of scripture bow to the symbols of Revelation.
 
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