AD 30 to AD 70 – end of Old Covenant?

[mkgal1]

There is nothing to indicate that this happened 3 1/2 years later. But it's possible.

From what I've read from church history - the stoning of Steven was 34 AD (which aligns with CG's timeline).

Acts 10 - from what I understand - was 20 years after the Cross (which, to me, demonstrates just how entrenched even Peter was in the Laws of what was "clean" vs what was "unclean" (Peter was even considered PEOPLE "unclean" just days before - just going from my memory - he went into the home of Cornelius). But there was also the Ethiopian eunuch that was converted in Acts 8 (I'm not sure what that year was).

 

[keras]

Explain then; what does Hebrews 9:15-17 mean?

The answer to every one of your questions is "yes" for those in Christ. (2 Corinthians 1:20)

YES in Christ….. but not yet, to be completely fulfilled in the future.
As is obvious to anyone who can see that how we are today, is not the way we will be.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The opening post is my response to a common assumption that the Old Covenant ended when the Jewish temple was destroyed in AD 70.

There have been several misconceptions concerning the forty-year period between the crucifixion of Christ and the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans in AD 70. Both arise from competing interpretations of Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks. (Daniel 9:24-27)

• The first misconception comes from those who believe that Daniel’s 70th week was unhooked from the other weeks and sent to the future. In their argument with those who say that the weeks were contiguous they ask, “but how can the 70th week stretch over forty years to include the events of Christ’s ministry as well as the destruction of Jerusalem?” (verse 27)

The answer is quite simple. The fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple did not take place within the actual seventy weeks; the prophet was simply providing information of the aftermath to the weeks in order to explain what the eventual outcome would be.

View attachment 270805

• The second misconception comes from those who wish to magnify the importance of the AD 70 event. Their reasoning is that sacrifice of animals completely stopped then. Therefore, that must have been when the Old Covenant completely ceased! Tied into this reasoning is their interpretation of the ‘last days.’ They are the days (in their view) that lead up to the termination of the Mosaic order in AD 70.

I would like us to discuss this second point with any who are interested. In the meanwhile, please do the poll: (up to 3 answers allowed)

Great chart, and I voted: "When Jesus said, “It is finished” and the temple curtain torn down."

 

[keras]

From what I've read from church history - the stoning of Steven was 34 AD (which aligns with CG's timeline).

But that timeline places the Crucifixion at the mid point of the 70th 'week'.
An idea that contradicts Daniel 9:26a, which plainly states the Messiah will be 'cut off' at the end of the 69th 'week' and is therefore; wrong.

 

[jgr]

YES in Christ….. but not yet, to be completely fulfilled in the future.
As is obvious to anyone who can see that how we are today, is not the way we will be.

Who said "not yet"?

Jesus didn't say it. His disciples didn't say it.

2 Corinthians 1
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Present tense when written. No waiting required.

 

[mkgal1]

But that timeline places the Crucifixion at the mid point of the 70th 'week'.

Correct.

An idea that contradicts Daniel 9:26a, which plainly states the Messiah will be 'cut off' at the end of the 69th 'week' and is therefore; wrong

"In the midst of the week" is the middle (v. 27).

V. 26 says (in some translations) then AFTER the 62 weeks (which was after the first group of 7 weeks - bringing the timeline to AFTER 69 weeks).....because it was broken into a grouping of years, like this:

Google Image Result for http://pictures.amazingdiscoveries.org/ChartsGraphs/8897-70-Week-Prophecy.jpg

 

[keras]

Who said "not yet"?

Jesus didn't say it. His disciples didn't say it.

2 Corinthians 1
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Present tense when written. No waiting required.

Nobody said when all the Promises of God will be fulfilled. You try to make that they all have, but the world as it is today precludes that false idea.

Correct.
"In the midst of the week" is the middle (v. 27).

V. 26 says (in some translations) then AFTER the 62 weeks (which was after the first group of 7 weeks - bringing the timeline to AFTER 69 weeks).....because it was broken into a grouping of years, like this:

You have just shown how wrong and confused you are, by making Daniel 9:26 the same as Daniel 9:27.
v26 says:...After the 62 have passed, [plus seven; verse 25 = 69 'weeks'] the Anointed Prince will be removed....REBible
Which Jesus was, as He ascended to heaven, just forty days after He rose from the tomb. Acts 1:2-3

But Daniel 9:27 is about another prince, who will stop the Temple offering at the mid point of the final 'week' of seven years.
Jesus did not do that, neither did Titus fulfil this prophecy. Titus is the invading 'prince; of verse 26b.
As can plainly be seen from Revelation, the fulfilment of Daniel 9:27 awaits fulfilment by the multi prophesied Anti-Christ, the leader of a future One World Govt. Daniel 7:23-25

 

[Christian Gedge]

But that timeline places the Crucifixion at the mid point of the 70th 'week'.
An idea that contradicts Daniel 9:26a, which plainly states the Messiah will be 'cut off' at the end of the 69th 'week' and is therefore; wrong.

Indeed, my timeline does place the crucifixion at the mid point of the 70th 'week'.
An idea that is confirmed by Daniel 9:27a, which plainly states the covenant ending sacrifice and offering would come in the 'midst of the week'. As for Daniel 9:26a, it tells us that he would be cut off sometime after the 69th 'week.' Yes, he WAS cut off after the 69th week!

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

The opening post is my response to a common assumption that the Old Covenant ended when the Jewish temple was destroyed in AD 70.

There have been several misconceptions concerning the forty-year period between the crucifixion of Christ and the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans in AD 70. Both arise from competing interpretations of Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks. (Daniel 9:24-27)

• The first misconception comes from those who believe that Daniel’s 70th week was unhooked from the other weeks and sent to the future. In their argument with those who say that the weeks were contiguous they ask, “but how can the 70th week stretch over forty years to include the events of Christ’s ministry as well as the destruction of Jerusalem?” (verse 27)

The answer is quite simple. The fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple did not take place within the actual seventy weeks; the prophet was simply providing information of the aftermath to the weeks in order to explain what the eventual outcome would be.

View attachment 270805

• The second misconception comes from those who wish to magnify the importance of the AD 70 event. Their reasoning is that sacrifice of animals completely stopped then. Therefore, that must have been when the Old Covenant completely ceased! Tied into this reasoning is their interpretation of the ‘last days.’ They are the days (in their view) that lead up to the termination of the Mosaic order in AD 70.

I would like us to discuss this second point with any who are interested. In the meanwhile, please do the poll: (up to 3 answers allowed)

Hi I have followed some of the arguments of those who hold your ideas and you list things as misconceptions and assume your view holds any. When people look at the new covenant and still believe the abomination of desolation I have seen many times the argument put forward the old covenant is abolished and no way will the sacrifice return as Jesus made the final sacrifice. At this point I think your side has basic misconceptions and I have showed that no one was ever saved apart from the new covenant. Abraham died and God accounted him as righteous based on faith. When Lazarus died he was with Abraham in the grave. So the righteous were in comfort but when Jesus died he freed those in Abraham's bosom and like the thief on the cross was to be in paradise that day. The book of Rev has the song of the redeemed in heaven singing to the lamb who was worthy to take the scroll and loosen the seals that they were redeemed by His blood out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation and that they will reign with him on the earth.

So if all the saved are redeemed even from Adam on by the blood of the lamb no one was ever saved by the day of atonement it was a symbol and if you did the rituals apart from having faith that would account it to you for righteousness you perish.

So seeing the 70th week as future and the return of the sacrifice as the stage being set for the man of sin the son of perdition who is revealed in the temple saying he is a God and even the elect would beleive him if it were possible as he performs lying signs and wonders. Rendering this man as the same as the beast in Rev 13 and linking this to the middle of Daniels 70th week is not a long shot. You see the man in Rev 13 like the man in 2 Thes 2 both are given their power by Satan and destroyed by the coming of the LORD. In Rev 13 he is given power over everything tribe tongue kindred and nation for 42 months after he survives a mortal wound and causes all to worship not only himself but the dragon too. This is clear. Now this man survives a mortal wound and the false prophet at this moment brings out the image of the beast and the mark number or name of the beast system. 42 months would by the middle of the week if the man of sin in 2 Thess 2 is revealed at the abomination of desolation in the future. The return of the sacrifice has nothing to do with the return of the law or old covenant.

In Hosea the sign for the return of the kingdom and David being raised up is this and in the latter days.

4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Now it has been many days without a sacrifice... In 70 ad the sacrifice had been going on continually for hundreds of years. Think it over and consider how modern Israel has prepared everything for the return of the sacrifice. At a time when one world government is openly supported and the moral conditions are that as the days of Noah. I think the future promises all point to a literal fulfilment of all the prophecies. I agree that the grace and glory of the new covenant is the great common agreement and respect your views although I deeply contend with you.

 

[jgr]

But Daniel 9:27 is about another prince, who will stop the Temple offering at the mid point of the final 'week' of seven years.

Speaking of wrong and confused...

We've been over this innumerable times before.

There is only one individual identified as a prince in Daniel 9:24-27.

He is Messiah.

There is no "another prince" because there is no other individual in the passage identified as a prince.

Except by interpretation by imagination.

 

[sovereigngrace]

But that timeline places the Crucifixion at the mid point of the 70th 'week'.
An idea that contradicts Daniel 9:26a, which plainly states the Messiah will be 'cut off' at the end of the 69th 'week' and is therefore; wrong.

Quite the opposite. He is cut off half way through the last week!

 

[Christian Gedge]

what is it that happened 3 1/2 years later that you call "Gospel to the Gentiles?"

There is nothing to indicate that this happened 3 1/2 years later. But it's possible.

From what I've read from church history - the stoning of Steven was 34 AD (which aligns with CG's timeline). Acts 10 - from what I understand - was 20 years after the Cross

Here is a more detailed diagram showing the sequence of events during the 70th week. Please take a moment to look at the references.

The date of St. Paul’s conversion on the Damascus road is calculated from his account to the Galatians and by cross-referencing it to the record in Acts. Paul relates:

"When he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me ... I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days ..." (Galatians 1:18)​

It may be of interest to know that 'Arabia' referred to the Nabataen Kingdom centred in modern-day Jordan. It extended to control Damascus during this period.

"Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ ... Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me." (Galatians 2:1)​

Thus AD 32 plus three plus fourteen comes to AD 49, which is a well-known anchor date. In this year, St. Paul took part in the great Council of Jerusalem as recorded in Acts 15. Therefore, his conversion is pinpointed as AD 32.

Since Cornelius’ experience is in sequence, it would have fallen soon after that year. No, an exact time is not recorded, but the outpouring of the Spirit on the Gentiles is surprisingly close to the end of the sabbatical year – the week. Therefore, since the end of the weeks marked the terminus ad quem of the times allotted to Israel, I believe we may safely say that the ‘times of the Gentiles’ proceeded from that date, that is, 1st Nisan AD 34

 

[keras]

Indeed, my timeline does place the crucifixion at the mid point of the 70th 'week'.
An idea that is confirmed by Daniel 9:27a, which plainly states the covenant ending sacrifice and offering would come in the 'midst of the week'. As for Daniel 9:26a, it tells us that he would be cut off sometime after the 69th 'week.' Yes, he WAS cut off after the 69th week!

40 days after, CG and SG. Acts of the Apostles 1:2-3

 

[pasifika]

Indeed, my timeline does place the crucifixion at the mid point of the 70th 'week'.
An idea that is confirmed by Daniel 9:27a, which plainly states the covenant ending sacrifice and offering would come in the 'midst of the week'. As for Daniel 9:26a, it tells us that he would be cut off sometime after the 69th 'week.' Yes, he WAS cut off after the 69th week!

Hello, so when was the city and sanctuary destroyed in Daniel 26, according to your chart there is no gap in the 69th week and the 70th week...making it wrong that the destruction of the sanctuary occurs within the last 7 week of the prophecy.

 

[pasifika]

Hi I have followed some of the arguments of those who hold your ideas and you list things as misconceptions and assume your view holds any. When people look at the new covenant and still believe the abomination of desolation I have seen many times the argument put forward the old covenant is abolished and no way will the sacrifice return as Jesus made the final sacrifice. At this point I think your side has basic misconceptions and I have showed that no one was ever saved apart from the new covenant. Abraham died and God accounted him as righteous based on faith. When Lazarus died he was with Abraham in the grave. So the righteous were in comfort but when Jesus died he freed those in Abraham's bosom and like the thief on the cross was to be in paradise that day. The book of Rev has the song of the redeemed in heaven singing to the lamb who was worthy to take the scroll and loosen the seals that they were redeemed by His blood out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation and that they will reign with him on the earth.

So if all the saved are redeemed even from Adam on by the blood of the lamb no one was ever saved by the day of atonement it was a symbol and if you did the rituals apart from having faith that would account it to you for righteousness you perish.

So seeing the 70th week as future and the return of the sacrifice as the stage being set for the man of sin the son of perdition who is revealed in the temple saying he is a God and even the elect would beleive him if it were possible as he performs lying signs and wonders. Rendering this man as the same as the beast in Rev 13 and linking this to the middle of Daniels 70th week is not a long shot. You see the man in Rev 13 like the man in 2 Thes 2 both are given their power by Satan and destroyed by the coming of the LORD. In Rev 13 he is given power over everything tribe tongue kindred and nation for 42 months after he survives a mortal wound and causes all to worship not only himself but the dragon too. This is clear. Now this man survives a mortal wound and the false prophet at this moment brings out the image of the beast and the mark number or name of the beast system. 42 months would by the middle of the week if the man of sin in 2 Thess 2 is revealed at the abomination of desolation in the future. The return of the sacrifice has nothing to do with the return of the law or old covenant.

In Hosea the sign for the return of the kingdom and David being raised up is this and in the latter days.

4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Now it has been many days without a sacrifice... In 70 ad the sacrifice had been going on continually for hundreds of years. Think it over and consider how modern Israel has prepared everything for the return of the sacrifice. At a time when one world government is openly supported and the moral conditions are that as the days of Noah. I think the future promises all point to a literal fulfilment of all the prophecies. I agree that the grace and glory of the new covenant is the great common agreement and respect your views although I deeply contend with you.

Hello Brian, great post. What i think is overlooked by the chart in the OP is that the 70 weeks prophecy is split in two sections with each section has it own starting point...

1. 1st starting point:

Daniel 9:25..."Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One comes the ruler comes, there will be seven sevens, and sixty two sevens...

(7 (7) +62 (7))=69 sevens or weeks

2. 2nd starting point for the remaining week (1 seven)

Daniel 9:26...War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed....

So, the "end" in the above verse is referring to the beginning of the remaining week of the prophecy (70 weeks ) we can see that in Daniel 12:4...and the desolation is degree from the middle of this final week until the coming of the Messiah. This last part is called "Day of the Lord" (42months), 2Thessalonians 2 etc

 

[CharismaticLady]

First, I have to say there is more evidence that Christ was crucified in 33 AD. Second, what is it that happened 3 1/2 years later that you call "Gospel to the Gentiles?"

Don't forget, Jesus was born sometime between 6 BC and 3 BC.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The opening post is my response to a common assumption that the Old Covenant ended when the Jewish temple was destroyed in AD 70.

There have been several misconceptions concerning the forty-year period between the crucifixion of Christ and the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans in AD 70. Both arise from competing interpretations of Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks. (Daniel 9:24-27)

• The first misconception comes from those who believe that Daniel’s 70th week was unhooked from the other weeks and sent to the future. In their argument with those who say that the weeks were contiguous they ask, “but how can the 70th week stretch over forty years to include the events of Christ’s ministry as well as the destruction of Jerusalem?” (verse 27)

The answer is quite simple. The fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple did not take place within the actual seventy weeks; the prophet was simply providing information of the aftermath to the weeks in order to explain what the eventual outcome would be.

View attachment 270805

• The second misconception comes from those who wish to magnify the importance of the AD 70 event. Their reasoning is that sacrifice of animals completely stopped then. Therefore, that must have been when the Old Covenant completely ceased! Tied into this reasoning is their interpretation of the ‘last days.’ They are the days (in their view) that lead up to the termination of the Mosaic order in AD 70.

I would like us to discuss this second point with any who are interested. In the meanwhile, please do the poll: (up to 3 answers allowed)

I believe the official date in the eyes of God was when Christ said it is finished. However, the New Covenant wasn't given (like the reading of the Will) until the Day of Pentecost (the anniversary of the giving of the Old Covenant).

2 Corinthians 3 shows us that even though the Old covenant ended, there is an analogy that from that point on to 70 AD there was a period of "fading away." That was the period of the gospel being preached by the majority of the apostles. Even though the covenant ended, and a new covenant started, it took time to understand the difference between the letter of the law, and the law by the Spirit. Thus, the Judaizers tainted the gospel given to the Galatians.

Personally, I don't think we can say for certain when each apostle died. I'm not fond of "traditions."

 

[Dave L]

Circumcision made one a physical member of Old Covenant Israel. The cross ended the practice. So when that last generation, circumcised before the crucifixion died off, the Old Covenant passed into history with only the New for believers only, remaining. These were the last generation the Apostles tried to reach. And many of whom, born again, converted to the New Covenant on Pentecost.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hello Brian, great post. What i think is overlooked by the chart in the OP is that the 70 weeks prophecy is split in two sections with each section has it own starting point...

1. 1st starting point:

Daniel 9:25..."Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One comes the ruler comes, there will be seven sevens, and sixty two sevens...

(7 (7) +62 (7))=69 sevens or weeks

2. 2nd starting point for the remaining week (1 seven)

Daniel 9:26...War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed....

So, the "end" in the above verse is referring to the beginning of the remaining week of the prophecy (70 weeks ) we can see that in Daniel 12:4...and the desolation is degree from the middle of this final week until the coming of the Messiah. This last part is called "Day of the Lord" (42months), 2Thessalonians 2 etc

Yes there are so many specific prophecies to go such as Jer 3
14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. 15 And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.

When Jerusalem is the throne of the LORD Israel is gathered not scattered and they will not follow their evil hearts. This is countered by saying that the church is now the Israel of God.


God knew of the destruction coming in 70AD shortly after the new covenant was brought in. So the verses immediately following the promise are Israel will not cease to be nation and God will not cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done. The chapter ends with Jerusalem being built and declared to be holy and never thrown down again at a time when there are dead bodies all over the place.

This shows up at the 2nd coming clearly in Zech 14 there will be many dead and the city in need of rebuilding when the LORD comes with His saints.

Jesus was promised to sit on throne of David but to order it and establish it with justice and judgment ruling with a rod of iron. Jesus in Luke 1 is supposed to deliver Israel from their enemies and from the time of deliverance they will be holy (converted) and in safety all the days of their lives.

This is the transition from the days of Jacobs trouble the tribulation and into the millennium when the throne of the LORD is established.

The before and after picture of Israel nationally and morally is repeated in many places. Read Eze 36 for one

67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Circumcision made one a physical member of Old Covenant Israel. The cross ended the practice. So when that last generation, circumcised before the crucifixion died off, the Old Covenant passed into history with only the New for believers only, remaining. These were the last generation the Apostles tried to reach. And many of whom, born again, converted to the New Covenant on Pentecost.

So you voted, "On the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was first poured out?" That is a long-time view of most commentaries I must admit. But I think we should also consider the significance of the Gentile pentecost 3½ years after.