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Featured AD 30 to AD 70 – end of Old Covenant?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Christian Gedge, Jan 24, 2020.

  1. When Jesus said, “It is finished” and the temple curtain torn down.

    72.7%
  2. On the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was first poured out.

    13.6%
  3. Over the full 7 years of the seventieth week, including the last half.

    9.1%
  4. At the destruction of the temple when sacrifice no longer offered.

    13.6%
  5. Date not defined – Over the full 40 years from the cross until AD 70.

    9.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    Hey SG, we agree about the 70th week being contiguous, and the atonement taking place in the middle of it. But have you been challenged by Futurists asking, “What about the last 3½ years? Why didn’t something of significance happen then? How do you answer them?
     
  2. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing (that I can see) described in Daniel 9 that necessarily needs to be fulfilled in the second 3 ½ years of the week. The 6 things predicted to be fulfilled in Christ obviously occurred in the first 3 ½ years of the week, mainly at the midpoint of it.

    Saying all that, the Gospel message went out to Israel first in the last 3 ½ years of the 70 weeks (as it had through the preceding ages), and bore significant fruit. After Christ's resurrection/ascent, there were 3 ½ years where the Church was shown to be protected before the persecution began after the 70th week (Revelation 12). The last 3 ½ yrs saw the outworking of that atonement in faithful Israel (the remnant) with their baptism of fire for service at Pentecost in order to take the Gospel out to the darkened heathen world immediately after that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  3. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    I might have to modify my ideas and emphasis a bit. So, the end of the O.C. was at the cross. Hmmm, yes.

    However, the last 3½ years had things that needed to be fulfilled too. Ive already mentioned the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Ill elaborate on the 'anointing' clause tomorrow.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  4. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Always appreciate your thoughts bro.

    Daniel 9 lays out a broad framework of God's dealings with Israel. It is not limited to the new covenant. Of course it is the central event. It depicts the surrounding landscape that saw the making of the new covenant. But anywhere in Scripture that speaks of the new covenant exclusively points to Christ's "death" and "blood." Nothing can be added to this or we dilute the reality, purpose and enormity of this transaction; we turn it into some type of process. But that was the old covenant. That is why Daniel 9 is so detailed in regard to the date of the transaction. It is presented as an identifiable date and event, so that we would not need to speculate.

    Thankfully, the cross did not spell the end of God's dealings with natural Israel. He empowered faithful Israel to focus on the lost sheep of Israel for a further 3 1/2 years, with extraordinary results. The Gospel would move from Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and then the uttermost parts of the earth – in that order. This was the result of the new covenant, and is important, but it is not the new covenant. The old covenant was made with man, the new covenant was wholly made with God.

    The whole 70 weeks are full of various realities and fulfilments, but the apex is Christ's payment for sin half way through the last week. That is why He came: "to seek and save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10 and 1 Timothy 1:15). Everything He did had a time and purpose.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  5. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I agree that there was yet more to be fulfilled AFTER the Cross. As you've mentioned....Pentecost is one necessary fulfillment after the Cross in order for Jesus' words that "all that was written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled" to be true. That still leaves more Feasts to be fulfilled (as per this calendar of feasts):

    [​IMG]
     
  6. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Old Covenant ended somewhere between the REsurrection and the day of Pentecost!
     
  7. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    Well, we know he fullfilled Passover. (1 Cor 5:7) He fullfilled Pentecost. (Acts 2:16) He fullfilled Tabernacles. (Hebrews 9:12) So, any feasts being kept after Fall AD 30 would have been unacceptable.

    The thing that I want to put forward is the promise that God gave to Abraham - that in him, "all the nations of the earth would be blessed." When was this promise fulfilled (or rather) when was it fully opened to the Gentiles?
     
  8. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I personally believe God *always* welcomed, through His covenant, the worship of the Gentiles - it was the tribalism mentality of the Israelites that kept them "shut out of heaven" and that's just what had Christ Jesus so angry with the Pharisees when He spoke this to them:

    "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces." ~ Matthew 23:13

    ....and at the Temple:

    Matthew 21:13 ~ And He declared to them, "It is written: 'My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.' But you are making it 'a den of robbers.'"

    .....which was quoting from Isaiah 56:

    v. 6-7 ~ And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD to minister to Him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be His servants—all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it and who hold fast to My covenant. I will bring them to my holy mountain of Jerusalem and will fill them with joy in my house of prayer. I will accept their burnt offerings and sacrifices, because my Temple will be called a house of prayer for all nations.
    ......but I believe He spread the Gospel to the Gentiles at the persecution that began immediately after the stoning of Steven.....after the "Days of Daniel's People" were complete (3 1/2 years after the Cross).

    Acts 8:1-3 ~
    Saul Persecutes the Church

    And Saul was there, giving approval to Stephen’s death.

    On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and
    all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. God-fearing men buried Stephen and mourned deeply over him. But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  9. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I'm pointing out that, in order for Jesus' words to have been true, ALL the feasts would have been needed to have been fulfilled by Him (and I believe they were). You pointed out the fulfillment of Pentecost - which was AFTER the Cross - there were more, I believe. I'm not referring to people adhering to the Feasts - but Jesus' fulfillment of them. Jesus instructed His followers to "go and wait for the promised gift from the Father"....they waited for 50 days (fulfilling the Day of Pentecost):

    Acts 1:4 ~ Once when he was eating with them, he commanded them, “Do not leave Jerusalem until the Father sends you the gift he promised, as I told you before.

    Quoting Dr. Kim Riddlebarger ~ The timing was perfect. All was ready. Pentecost was the 50th day after the first Sunday after Passover. Among Hebrew and Aramaic speaking Jews, Pentecost was known as the "Feast of Weeks," or the "Day of First Fruits." At some point in Israel's history, it came to be understood that Pentecost was the anniversary of the giving of the Law by God to Moses at Mt. Sinai. What the Jews recognized as the anniversary of the giving of the Law on two tablets of stone at Mt. Sinai, is the very day that God chooses to pour out his Holy Spirit, turning sinful hearts of stone into living hearts of human flesh. This present age, centered in the Law and the elementary principles of this world, was about to be swallowed up by the glorious new age of salvation, as Jesus Christ begins his reign through the Spirit in the hearts of his people. All that the prophets had foretold was even now coming to pass.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  10. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    The power came at Pentecost. Acts 13:46-48 says, “Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, it was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you [the Jews]: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the ethnos (or) Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the ethnos (or) Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the ethnos (or) Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

    From Acts 10 (and the incident at Cornelius’ house) the Gospel was released unto the darkened Gentiles in a significant manner. They would now be brought from darkness of heathenism unto the light of Christ and His Gospel. The unequivocal words from Paul and Barnabas above confirm that the tide had markedly turned and that the Gospel had opened up to the blinded Gentiles in a very definite way. With the rare exception of the city of Nineveh, the Gospel was previously restricted to the small individual “nation” of natural Israel before the Cross. The nations were totally engulfed with a blanket of darkness which was now being removed. The enforcement of Satan’s defeat at the Cross would now be realized by the people of God through the faithful preaching of the Word of God. The devil would be spiritually bound as the kingdom of God advanced with the Gospel. This spiritual binding ensures he is unable to defeat the work of the Church of Jesus Christ evangelizing the nations. It was only after Calvary that the good news of salvation was widened out to embrace the heathen “nations” of the world.
     
  11. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    We looked at #5 yesterday. Now I’d like us to consider the #6 clause as to when it was fulfilled in the 70th week. This saying, “to anoint the Most Holy,” has been subject to misunderstanding with arguments as to whether it refers to Jesus’ anointing, or to a temple yet un-built. Needless to say, dispensational teachers apply it to a future Jewish temple. In support of that, they claim the ‘most holy’ is speaking of a place - not of a person. (hebrew - Quodesh quodesh)

    However, to understand properly we must go to the tabernacle and see how it was anointed originally, and indeed it was anointed with holy oil, every item of furniture too, and finally the priests were anointed as well. The references are Exodus 30:22-31, Exodus 40:9-16, and Leviticus 8.

    Therefore, ‘to anoint the most holy’ means to consecrate the temple in its entirety, both place as well as person!

    And get this; the tabernacle started on a precise date – the 1st day of the 1st month (Exodus 40:2,17) Moses had come down from Mt Sinai, and they had only just finished building the tabernacle, so it was on New Year’s Day and the first day of the Old Covenant. Yes, we can date it!

    Now here is the kicker. When Jesus was declared to be the Son of God (John 1:29) it also was on New Year’s Day and the first day of the 70th week. Yes, we can date it to 1st Nisan (28th March) AD 27.

    So, God works with absolute precision in what scripture calls, ‘the Times.’ It’s pertinent to our topic. I’ll continue with the New Covenant ‘anointing’ tomorrow.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  12. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I absolutely agree. I also see patterns that He uses in order to maybe reveal Truth more clearly to us. For instance.....the giving of the Law at Mt Sinai and then the entrance to the Promised Land was a process - not an immediate occurrence. I believe the same is true of the New Testament believers - that there was a "giving of the New Covenant".....but then God allowed for time, in His mercy, for that New Creation to be processed....matured.... and grasped more fully.

    Quoting Adam Maarschalk (I sense a cringe from others each time I do this now, but I'm just giving credit where credit is due):
    Four Passages That Echo Mount Sinai in Revelation
    Echoes of Mount Sinai in the Book of Revelation
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
  13. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    … Continuing with, “to anoint the Most Holy.” Some say it refers to the anointing of Christ at his baptism; others say it means anoint a temple. Actually, it means both! To properly understand, let’s look into the background to find the Old Testament ‘type’ when the first ‘most holy’ was anointed - the tabernacle.
    Therefore, ‘to anoint the most holy’ means to consecrate the temple in its entirety, both place as well as person! With this in mind, we can work out what Daniel meant by his figure of speech, “to anoint the most holy.” It means the anointing of Christ and his Church, the temple not made by man’s hands. Does anyone here have a problem with the tabernacle/temple prefiguring the church?

    Now, I want us to notice how the anointing took seven days to complete.
    "And you shall not go outside the door of the tabernacle of meeting for seven days, until the days of your consecration are ended. For seven days he shall consecrate you." (Leviticus 8:33)

    I believe these seven days prefigure the years required to anoint God's temple not made by man’s hands - Jesus and his Church. He is the foundation; we are the stones. He is the head; we are the body. It is a single holy temple extending from heaven to earth, anointed during the span of the seventieth week. Accordingly, Jesus was anointed at his baptism.
    "God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him." (Acts 10:38)

    Then, the temple was raised up after his sacrificial death, when the Jewish Church was anointed at Pentecost.
    “You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)

    And finally, the completed Church was anointed when the Gentiles were grafted in about 3½ years later. Thus, the ‘most holy’ is the anointed manifestation of Christ together with His Church. Yes, the Old Covenant ended when Jesus cried, “It is finished.” However, the full confirmation of the covenant, including all six clauses of Daniel 9:24, came to pass over the full span of the seventieth week.
     
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  14. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    The problem with answering the poll question comes down to which covenant? The Adamic Covenant, the Noahic Covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, or the Davidic Covenant.

    I am positive that 4 of them have not ended. The New Covenant is made with the same folks that the Mosaic Covenant was made with according to Jeremiah. And since the kingdom has not been restored on the earth yet, the kingdom that the disciples asked about in Acts 1, then technically the New Covenant has not been established with the same group of people.
     
  15. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    One of the reasons I started this thread was to address the assumption that animal sacrifice until the temple’s destruction infers a transition between the Old and New Covenants. That idea might not have mattered if it wasn’t for the fact that a group of prophecy teachers (Preterists) have built it into a system of ending prophetic fulfilment in AD 70. In so doing, they deny us insight into later historical fulfilments, and also last-day events to come. In fairness, some Partial Preterists are more reasonable about it. I call them ‘Partial-Partial-Preterists’ (PPP) ;)

    My main argument, is that Daniel 9:24 explicitly says that the New Covenant would be fully in place by the end of the 70th week. I’d just like to add that the early church also believed the Old Covenant had passed well before AD 70. Here is a quote:

    "For we have ascertained beyond doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices which you offer, the time of sacrifices having now passed away; and because ye will not acknowledge that the time for offering victims is now past, therefore the temple shall be destroyed." (Clement, Recognitions, Ch. 64)
     
  16. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    It is plain that the Bible prophets predict a new Temple in Jerusalem, 2 Thess 2:4, Revelation 11:1
    It is also plain that the Lord's people will make sacrifices and offerings in it. Isaiah 56:7, Zechariah 14:20-21

    Denying these things is rejection of Bible Truths.
    The other truth is that we are not under any Covenant at present. We await the great second Exodus of all the Lord's faithful Christian people into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 32:11-16, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26
     
  17. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Hello Christian, what you don't realise is that prophecy is actually seeing into the future. So we must not put what we as Christians knows as Jesus being the fulfilment of scriptures to the modern nation of Israel where Daniel prophecy is about.

    Daniel seeing into to our days regarding Israel as a Nation still don't believe in Jesus Christ and still living according to old testament rituals ie, temple building etc
    And we can see that now the majority of Israel still stick to the old testament beliefs and Daniel prophesied that is the case.
    So the modern Israel will build a temple, Daniel called the temple as "abominable temple " because they don't understand that the Old testament temple was pointing to "Christ"...They (modern Israel) don't understand that But we Christians understand because we accept the teaching of Christ and the apostles in the new Testament as Jesus mention in Matthew 21:43...that the kingdom will be taken away from them and given to a nation in order to bear fruit....

    I would like anyone to discuss this difference in opinion of some say the 70th week of Daniel has already fulfilled. Is good to discuss this difference so we can have a clear understanding of different point of views.
    Hope you understood my writing...I will try and make my point clear for everyone and willing to share opinions.
     
  18. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    But prophecy eventually arrives and then we call it 'seeing into the past.' Everyone here has different ideas about how much has past, but, in the case of the 70th week, I agree with those who say its already fulfilled.

    There are other prophecies that come after that of course. Soon, Im going to start a discussion about them, but if you want to start a new thread about the 70th week, Ill join in.
     
  19. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Okay appreciate your response
     
  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Which includes the historical defenders of the true faith for over seventeen centuries.

    We're in distinguished company.
     
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