Actually worried about HELL?

[Mailman Dan]

If all that is true Dan, then God is an uspeakable monster and worse than anyone who is destined for hell!

Or, God is good, just, and holy, and finds sin to be offensive...like the bible says...

See the bible says a lot of things are "forever and ever" when they aren't. I believe there's verses in the OT that specify a city and say it will burn "forever and ever" or with "unquenchable fire" or the like...if such places were still burning today then I'd be more likely to believe that "forever and ever" actually means what it says.

If you believe the bible, then read the text posted in their context. Many people, as already shown here, just take the parts out of scripture they don't like because it doesn't fit their version of a god. Test it, read what Jesus said, and you'll see the truth.

BTW...if there was no hell, why did the OT Jews need blood offering for sin? Why did Christ die on the cross? Why would we need a Savior?

[font=&quot]2 Corinthians [/font][font=&quot]5[/font][font=&quot]:11[/font][font=&quot]
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; [/font]


But always be very aware, scripture does not agree we will all spend time with Christ.

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Dan~~~> thinks all the warnings are there for a reason

 

[Soul Searcher]

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Dan~~~> thinks all the warnings are there for a reason

Just curious here, who do you think Jesus is talking about in the verse above?

 

[SpaceMan]

Why did Christ die on the cross?

Because he freely chose to do so…

Why would we need a Savior?

We don’t. Jesus taught/exemplified “the way”…but it is each individual person’s choice whether or not to follow in his footsteps…

 

[invisible trousers]

(The old, My god would never create hell arguement)

Those who say that are right: their "god" would never create hell, because he couldn’t. He doesn’t exist. He is a figment of their imagination, a god they have created to suit themselves. It’s called "idolatry," and it’s the oldest sin in the Book. Idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of God. The one true God, however, could and did create hell for those who reject His mercy. They will reap His just wrath.

Good thing I didn't make that argument

 

[Clement of Alexandria]

Look, we have had enough of Dan's doom and gloom preaching of a cruel deity without the imagination or wisdom to do anything about conflict but to render penalties upon the sinner or christ as his substitute. We do not believe it. We reject it. We think it is pure nonsense. We accept no authority that would make us think that God would do something that no honorable man would do. So, why on earth are you here telling us this twisted theology which we have long left behind? That's why we're here in Liberal Theology -- to get away from Spyware and Chain Letters such as the Penal atonement theology that you are peddling. So please pay us the courtesy...

 

[Martinez]

as far as I know God hates sin because it causes suffering,
Yeah?
now it hardly makes sense that the penalty for sin from a God who hates suffering would everlasting suffering far exceeding any present suffering!

Think it through!

 

[Clement of Alexandria]

Protestants say that it would be virtuous of God to render an infinite penalty upon Hitler because he caused the suffering of 6 million Jews. But what is the joy of those Jews worth to God, anyways? God has the intention of rendering infinite suffering on the Jews (non-Christians) after they die.

So who is going to render an infinite penalty on God for his eternal cruelty upon the Jews?

This doctrine of a divine penalty for sin is what brought madness and cruelty onto the earth.

 

[Mailman Dan]

Just curious here, who do you think Jesus is talking about in the verse above?

The same thing He repeated here...




Matthew 25:

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Why would we need a Savior?

We don’t.

You might not have One, but you do need a payment for sin.

Romans 5:8, "God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!"

Romans 10:13, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved!"

Romans 10:9,10, "...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Jesus spoke many times of hell..

Matthew 5:29-30

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.


Luke 12:5

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


Matthew 23:33

[Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Many don't believe His words deny Him out right. One who doesn't understand their need for a payment for sin, doesn't understand what sin is and why it offends God. Too bad many will find out too late what they did need...

Those that pick and chose parts of the bible to believe and toss out the scripture they dont believe are in Idoltry, making a god in their mind to the doctrines they believe. Its very common, and you can all see that as clear as I can.

Dan, the theology you present here represents a failure of the imagination and the character.

Thus my point... Your building gods with "imagination" rather than conforming to the God of the bible.

Dan~~~>hopes one day you can see it clearly

 

[SpaceMan]

You might not have One, but you do need a payment for sin.

No, I don’t; I do not conceptualize a sin as something that needs to be “paid-for.”

Your building gods with "imagination" rather than conforming to the God of the bible.

But is it really your place to say which alternative is more valid then the other…?

 

[Martinez]

Umm,

I have a question!

In the parable of Lazaras and th rich man, the rich man begs to go back and warn his brothers.
and God says that He sent all the prophets and they didn't listen then.

only problem is none of the phrophets ever mention Hell.
so much for the idea of a gradual revelation.


Please explain!

 

[Soul Searcher]

The same thing He repeated here...

So are you saying that those who do good are the ones who are saved e.g. love, compassion mercy for thier neighbors and those who believe but do not do are condemned?

 

[Martinez]

also just wondering,

If the wages of sin is death.
because we basically were working for the devil when we sin,
Then how come God is the one who has to pay the wages?

sounds suspiciously like the wages of sin is just that,

Death!

 

[Martinez]

Ah Whoops!

 

[NormalRyan]

Umm,

I have a question!

In the parable of Lazaras and th rich man, the rich man begs to go back and warn his brothers.
and God says that He sent all the prophets and they didn't listen then.

only problem is none of the phrophets ever mention Hell.
so much for the idea of a gradual revelation.


Please explain!

Your preaching to the choir, ha.

 

[Im_A]

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

NOW, let's take a look at everlasting, forever punishment in the Bible as well.

Dan i have a lot to say and quote here, so i'm going to give you a link to look up. it has reference to what i posted below, but also it shows how long "everlasting" "forever" is in the Bible with other passages. you may be shocked. and i'm asking you, if you are going to make your posts here, check out the links that we give for our views, or leave us alone, cause any argument that is one sided on their own views and doesn't see the side of opposition is a side of nonsense (imho).
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellStudy/HellChart.html
this is the sight that many of the sites came from, if you really care to dialogue with your fellow brothers and sisters who believe in universalism, and when we give you links that can better explain such doctrine better than our capabilities.
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Romans 5:8, "God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!"

AMEN. liberals are far as i know believe that.

Romans 10:13, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved!"

and then we read further in the Epistles that, God will make every knee and tounge confess that Jesus is Lord.

Romans 10:9,10, "...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

and then we read further in the Epistles that, God will make every knee and tounge confess that Jesus is Lord (yes i'm repeating myself here, cause i can and it is easy.)

and on the same note, it can be argued that works is mentioned more than Paul's new idea here of "spoken salvation." Paulians i tell ya (bad j/k or not, but maybe it will make people chuckle even the mailman himself.)

Jesus spoke many times of hell..

i'm going to copy a chart i found that mentions how many times that the word "hell" is used in the translations. this chart is found at tentmaker.org, but also holds much accuracy (not because of the views it holds.) and i'm posting this first, because your argument relies on the fact that the translates translated that Jesus mentioned hell. and here's another link to read. http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

"Authorized" King James Version-31 in OT; 23 in NT
New King James Version-19 in OT; 13 in NT
American Standard Version-13 in NT
New American Standard Bible-13 in NT
Revised Standard Version-12 in NT
New Revised Standard Version-12 in NT
Revised English Bible-13 in NT
New Living Translation-13 in NT
Amplified-13 in NT
New International Version (best-selling English Bible)- 14 in NT
Darby -12 in NT
New Century Version-12 in NT
(the rest is zero of any usage of the word "hell" in scriptures.)
Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
World English Bible (in progress)
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**

and please, if you want to argue with us on this that's fine but, spare us the argument that this is the End Times and false doctrines are coming about through translations. as far as you and i know the false doctrines started with the Protestant Reformation, the split between Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxs, or the time the Eastern Orthodox church got created from the Jewish Christians and the other groups/sects going on at the time. that argument that people love to swing at us holds no ground (no matter if one can prooftext it from the scripture) because this is 2005, going on 2006 very soon, A LONG TIME AFTER JESUS'S ASCENSION.

and by pass the itching of ears quote. anyone that wants to believe that they are going to heaven and rely the strengthening of that belief by the damnation of others have EXTREMELY ITCHING EARS as far i can see.

Matthew 5:29-30

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

let's say hell is literal, we should be thankful that if something "should" be thrown into "hell" then we know and trust God's grace is there for humanity and go back to that link about Jesus's teachings on hell.

And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

same as above.

Luke 12:5

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

of course reverant fear of God Almighty is a must. duh. let's not get back to milk here mailman. God is omnipotent, of course God's powers include the power to annihalte, or torment people in hell for an eternity. there are those of us who see other verses that have been put on your threads or on your responses in other threads countless times as the reason why we believe God will fully demonstrate The Mightiness of His power through His love and through His omnipotency of actually getting His Will done(reconciling all creation back to Himself), and that we saw God's Ultimate Omnipotent Power through Christ and Christ alone!

Matthew 23:33

[Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

while i'm at it, let's look at the next verse after-matthew 23:34;
"Therefore I send you prophets, sages and scribes, some of whom you will kill and curcity, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursure from town to town, so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from teh blood of righteous Abel t o the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the alter. Truly i tell you, all this will come upon this generation." truly, this did happen, and it's over now. the seige of Jerusalem ended.

Many don't believe His words deny Him out right. One who doesn't understand their need for a payment for sin, doesn't understand what sin is and why it offends God. Too bad many will find out too late what they did need...


Those that pick and chose parts of the bible to believe and toss out the scripture they dont believe are in Idoltry, making a god in their mind to the doctrines they believe. Its very common, and you can all see that as clear as I can.

yes it would be clear if you could persuade/convince us that your exergies of interpretating the scriptures was PERFECT, TRUE AND HOLY. until then (and i highly doubt you will have swaying ground here.) there is nothing to benefit/gain from us liberals that disagree with you and your exergies of interpretation of the scriptures. there is nothing to lose as well.

Thus my point... Your building gods with "imagination" rather than conforming to the God of the bible.

Dan~~~>hopes one day you can see it clearly

i am sure that i am not the only one that sees as this some kind of straw-man theory/last failed attempt to make a point here.

as i know we've debated about this before, i still stand on what i have said other times. you pick and choose these few verses and make up or feel justified to go along with some "traditional" theory. the only catch is many of us see the fact that prooftexting causes too much THEOLOGICAL problems. there is nothing rational or logical to theology. so instead of going along prooftexting, many of us, try to fit common Christian doctrine with the theology we discuss or believe in. and the contradictions that we run into makes us junk such ideas as "eternal torment". and just as many conservative Christians do, we use logic to help us out as well. modern fundamentalists, consevervatives, liberals, moderates, all alike and anyone else, uses their own logic, their perception of reality. nothing changes with this.

we are not committing idolatary. don't give humanity such a big ego that we can create something that big in our head that goes beyond God mailman. that's actually hiliarious the more i think about it. any form of idolatry mentioned in the Bible, was mentioned under the line that there is more gods out there but monotheistic in the sense that one should only worship one God. not modern day ill-fainted metaphors so people can feel strong in their faith.

well this seems to be another thread that we are giving you ideas to think about, and i know i have given several links.

i hope you are happy that i have engaged with you more on your posts. this one has taken a lot of time, so i'm going to rest for a bit and have some mac and cheese. i just hope you pay us back the grace of actually looking at our links that explain better from people who know more about things of this nature, and actually read it all. to take the time to read it all which the links use passage after passage Dan, so if your worried about that not happening, don't be. and you want us to read these passages you present, see your points you present, you do it back to us, or do not post here anymore. that isn't much to ask in a Discussion and Debate Forum. (and i'm asking read it. not skim through it. eyes can get itchy too ya know )

God Bless!

 

[AndreLinoge]

If you take away hell, you take the fun out of fundamentalism!

 

[Martinez]

Is that because their Hell is bigger than their God?

 

[TheBear]

The concept of a hell, or even of an afterlife, started with the ancient Egyptians.

My guess - The concept of rewards and punishment in an afterlife, started as a way to control the masses.

 

[Cleany]

This doctrine of a divine penalty for sin is what brought madness and cruelty onto the earth.

if people stopped thinking about the afterlife and retribution then the world would be a much better place.

 

[Clement of Alexandria]

Cleany, don't take away the words "divine retribution" from me. I like retribution... and punishment, and wrath. The words I don't like are divine penalties, divine sadism, and divine cruelty.

God does retributively punish, but it is not for the sake of the punishment, as a thing that in itself ought to be done, but for the sake of something else, as a means to an end, that God punishes. Punishment is for the sake of amendment and atonement. God is bound by his love to punish sin in order to deliver his creature; he is bound by his justice to destroy sin in his creation. Love is justice—is the fulfilling of the law, for God as well as for his children. This is the reason of punishment; this is why justice requires that the wicked shall not go unpunished—that they, through the eye-opening power of pain, may come to see and do justice, may be brought to desire and make all possible amends, and so become just. Such punishment concerns justice in the deepest degree. Justice then requires that sin should be put an end to; and not that only, but that it should be atoned for; and where punishment can do anything to this end, where it can help the sinner to know what he has been guilty of, where it can soften his heart to see his pride and wrong and cruelty, justice requires that punishment shall not be spared.