Actually worried about HELL?

[madbear]

You probably all know this, but I'd advise anybody with an interest in liberal theology to read CS Lewis's vision of hell in The Great Divorce. It accords very nicely with original meanings of sheol and hades, i.e., the underworld, a dull, sterile, and tiresome place. According to Lewis (in this book, at least), the occupants of Hell are there, essentially, out of choice. They don't want union with God, because this would mean letting go of their sinful, wordly characteristics -- jealousy, righteous indignation, bigotry, etc -- which they believe defines them as people. It's a strangely compelling picture, in my opinion.

There's no point recommending this book to the conversatives, of course, because they all think CS Lewis was the antichrist

 

[numberprophet]

i can't believe this thread is still going...it's invisible people!!!!!

 

[LiberatedChick]

i can't believe this thread is still going...it's invisible people!!!!!

It's not invisible in our subscribed thread lists

 

[numberprophet]

yah, true.

 

[lilangel04_86]

I believe there is a hell. As to what it will be like I do not know ( nor do I want to). There is a scripture in the Bible about there being a lake of fire. And that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. God is a just God, but he is also a merciful God that cares. I never think about hell because it will just bring you down knowing that people are going there.

 

[invisible trousers]

i can't believe this thread is still going...it's invisible people!!!!!

These are my type of threads

 

[lilangel04_86]

These are my type of threads

Lol. That's funny.

 

[MQTA]

could hell be much worse than what some people see here nowadays?

 

[Im_A]

here's another site for those interested.

http://www.askelm.com/news/n020806.htm

 

[Mailman Dan]

you pick and choose these few verses and make up or feel justified to go along with some "traditional" theory. the only catch is many of us see the fact that prooftexting causes too much THEOLOGICAL problems. there is nothing rational or logical to theology. so instead of going along prooftexting, many of us, try to fit common Christian doctrine with the theology we discuss or believe in. and the contradictions that we run into makes us junk such ideas as "eternal torment". and just as many conservative Christians do, we use logic to help us out as well. modern fundamentalists, consevervatives, liberals, moderates, all alike and anyone else, uses their own logic, their perception of reality. nothing changes with this.

It should bother you, that you pick and chose web sites that say the bible is in error on the scripture verses you don't believe...

Yet, your claim that Hell is junk, knowing full well it comes from scripture and where its found is strange. You've made clear you don't believe in it, but you also claim the scripture is wrong, 9or in translation errors) in the parts you don't believe. Thats one reason I can't understand universalist, it makes no sense. If God is all powerful, He could have changed it to read there was no hell...Instead its very clearly presented in scripture.

Even the Jews, which you claim don't believe in hell, knew full well why they offered sacrifices in blood offerings......as covering for sin. Without belief in judgement, that would have been pointless.

Which brings me to what Universalist do...

They try to remove the very reason God gave men to repent..

Heb 9:27.

For IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT-

Acts 17:30-31
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Its why those who believe scripture over blog posting, or your various (often cult based) web sites will stand against it.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


You are free to deny it exist on whatever grounds you wish. But just as this thread is invisible, it still exist. Most Universalist do believe in the existance of a "temporary" hell, just based on the amount of proof found in scripture. Stop spending time in web sites written by people that deny it, and pick up the bible as your guide.

Dan~~~>knows there will be plenty more denial of the bible before its proven true

 

[NormalRyan]

It should bother you, that you pick and chose web sites that say the bible is in error on the scripture verses you don't believe...

Yet, your claim that Hell is junk, knowing full well it comes from scripture and where its found is strange. You've made clear you don't believe in it, but you also claim the scripture is wrong, 9or in translation errors) in the parts you don't believe. Thats one reason I can't understand universalist, it makes no sense. If God is all powerful, He could have changed it to read there was no hell...Instead its very clearly presented in scripture.

Even the Jews, which you claim don't believe in hell, knew full well why they offered sacrifices in blood offerings......as covering for sin. Without belief in judgement, that would have been pointless.

Which brings me to what Universalist do...

They try to remove the very reason God gave men to repent..

Heb 9:27.

For IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT-

Acts 17:30-31
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Its why those who believe scripture over blog posting, or your various (often cult based) web sites will stand against it.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


You are free to deny it exist on whatever grounds you wish. But just as this thread is invisible, it still exist. Most Universalist do believe in the existance of a "temporary" hell, just based on the amount of proof found in scripture. Stop spending time in web sites written by people that deny it, and pick up the bible as your guide.

Dan~~~>knows there will be plenty more denial of the bible before its proven true

The bible was written over a 900 year period, the reason I don't think those passages make much of a difference is because I am not a biblical literalist. You can quote me verses all day long, but if in the end it means that God is a big mean ogre then I'm not going to believe it. An all loving God simply wouldn't torment someone for eternity, that would be a sadistic and ruthless God.

 

[MQTA]

cult based? ROTFL *mirror*

You did get one word right in there


IF

actually has a double meaning.

 

[LiberatedChick]

It should bother you, that you pick and chose web sites that say the bible is in error on the scripture verses you don't believe...

Yet, your claim that Hell is junk, knowing full well it comes from scripture and where its found is strange. You've made clear you don't believe in it, but you also claim the scripture is wrong, 9or in translation errors) in the parts you don't believe. Thats one reason I can't understand universalist, it makes no sense. If God is all powerful, He could have changed it to read there was no hell...Instead its very clearly presented in scripture.

I don't think anyone is picking and choosing here at all, you're assuming everyone believes the bible is inerrant. See if someone thought the bible was inerrant but then said "oh except for verse x, y and z" because they don't want to believe those verses...then yeah, it's likely they're picking and choosing. But if you don't believe the bible is inerrant, then stating verses you believe there is errors in isn't picking and choosing. It's not someone holding the entire bible to be true and then dismissing a few bits of scripture because they don't want to believe it...it's someone saying "I think the bible has errors and here's a few of them".

Which brings me to what Universalist do...

They try to remove the very reason God gave men to repent..

Actually, that's not something Universalists do...least not all of them and what you say here contradicts what you say later on....

You are free to deny it exist on whatever grounds you wish. But just as this thread is invisible, it still exist. Most Universalist do believe in the existance of a "temporary" hell, just based on the amount of proof found in scripture. Stop spending time in web sites written by people that deny it, and pick up the bible as your guide.

...see you say that Universalists remove the reason for repenting and then say that most Universalists believe in a "temporary hell". Well you're right that many do believe in a temporary punishment/purification...but that's plenty reason to repent if you ask me.

 

[Im_A]

It should bother you, that you pick and chose web sites that say the bible is in error on the scripture verses you don't believe...

Yet, your claim that Hell is junk, knowing full well it comes from scripture and where its found is strange. You've made clear you don't believe in it, but you also claim the scripture is wrong, 9or in translation errors) in the parts you don't believe. Thats one reason I can't understand universalist, it makes no sense. If God is all powerful, He could have changed it to read there was no hell...Instead its very clearly presented in scripture.

Even the Jews, which you claim don't believe in hell, knew full well why they offered sacrifices in blood offerings......as covering for sin. Without belief in judgement, that would have been pointless.

Which brings me to what Universalist do...

They try to remove the very reason God gave men to repent..

Heb 9:27.

For IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT-

Acts 17:30-31
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Its why those who believe scripture over blog posting, or your various (often cult based) web sites will stand against it.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


You are free to deny it exist on whatever grounds you wish. But just as this thread is invisible, it still exist. Most Universalist do believe in the existance of a "temporary" hell, just based on the amount of proof found in scripture. Stop spending time in web sites written by people that deny it, and pick up the bible as your guide.

Dan~~~>knows there will be plenty more denial of the bible before its proven true

so out of my whole post dan, you pick that one little part.

the sites are not saying the Bible is in error. the reason i choose to pick sites is for the very reason of using scripture, and to even use Christian theologians words to.

the sites don't say the Bible is in error. the sites say that the theory of eternal torment is in error or junk or wrong whatever word you find. did you even look at the sites that explained universalism BY USING SCRIPTURE? did you even look at the sites that gave proof that UNIVERSALISM WAS THE HELD BELIEF BY THE CHURCH FOR CENTURIES? tradition right?

the Bible is my guide dan, why do you think i was trying to find a reference online to use the Bible as a part of explaining universal reconcliation. both the sites do that. and it's just easier dan on these forums, without loading up the thread soooo much that it gets unbearable to read with the eyes. i thought you would figure that out by now, but i guess i was wrong.

your accusation of us getting rid of the reason to repent is erronous and your normal tactic on here. we do believe in a temporary hell. but we do believe that God will reconcile back all His creation because THAT'S HIS WILL ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE. we have every reason to repent without the idea of there being eternal torment. to live our lives better on this earth. to not experience hell in this life. to not have to go through any kind of temperoary hell in the afterlife. it's just us that believe in universal reconciliation believe one thing is true. we believe that God's omnipotency is more powerful than mankind's desire to burn in hell (if there is such a thing.)

did you take a look at other verses that talk about how the scriptures talk about "everlasting" in the scriptures, or did you just bypass over that? and it's using scriptures purely as their only source on that issue

you quote revelations. which i'm sorry, your point is pointless there. a book that is more symbolic than any book. and two, a book that talks about the fall of Jerusalem through symbology, written during a time that the Jews/Christians were getting extremely persecuted? and you expect me to believe mailman dan's interpretation that in that book, we can quote 1 to 2 verses to make our view of the theological idea of eternal torment? please.

especially when the Bible does show that everlasting has a time frame that it does end, and clearly shown many a times in the scriptures? i'm going to say go back and actually take an effort to those links dan, because I DON'T WANT TO MAKE THIS POST UNBEARABLE TO READ (THAT'S THE NICE THING ABOUT THE INTERNET ) but i think i will this time, so you can stop making erronous accusations. (whether it works or not, i highly doubt it.

well dan, this is another pointless discussion with you. you have failed to give me one reason why a literal interpretation is the best source of interpretating the scriptures for this topic. i'm going to list out all the verses in the Bible for universalism and all the verses that the translations say it is everlasting but then all of a sudden everlasting becomes temporary.

i'm going to make it into a seperate thread. and i hope your erronous accusations stop there after this thread with a conversation with you and i.

 

[Im_A]

2 Timothy 1:9
1 Corinthians 3:15
1 Corinthians 5:5
2 Corinthians 5:19
2 Timothy 2:4–6
Philippians 2:10–11
1 Corinthians 12:3
Philippians 2:13
1 John 2:2
1 Corinthians 15:28
Romans 11:36
Ephesians 1:10
Colossians 1:20
John 3:17
1 Timothy 4:10
Matthew 25:46 *kolasis which in Greek literature means correction.*
I Timothy 2:4
Galatians 5:20
Daniel 4:35
Ephesians 1:9,10
Revelations 4:11 (oops i quoted Revelations as well.)
Isaiah 46:10
1 John 4:14
I John 3:8
Isaiah 53:10
Psalm 2:8
John 3:35
John 17:2
John 6:37
Hebrews 2:9
I Timothy 2:6
I John 2:2
John 1:29
Daniel 7:13,14
I Corinthians 15:24-28
Colossians 1:16
Colossians 1:20
i'm going to end it here for now. before i end it, i must say all these verses tie into one another. that's the only way for a viewpoint to be scripturally sound is to tie into each other. now next to the Church Fathers for those who love traditionalism.

 

[Im_A]

The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great

There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. -- Augustine (354-430 A.D.)

For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them...the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them. --Diodore of Tarsus, 320-394 A.D.

And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled...just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. --Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)

Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable. --Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.)

These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. --Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19

The Word seems to me to lay down the doctrine of the perfect obliteration of wickedness, for if God shall be in all things that are, obviously wickedness shall not be in them. For it is necessary that at some time evil should be removed utterly and entirely from the realm of being.—St. Macrina the Blessed

In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one. --St. Jerome, 331-420

For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body. --Gregory of Nyssa, 335-390

The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. --Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428

We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. –Clement of Alexandria

Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. --Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)

Wherefore, that at the same time liberty of free-will should be left to nature and yet the evil be purged away, the wisdom of God discovered this plan; to suffer man to do what he would, that having tasted the evil which he desired, and learning by experience for what wretchedness he had bartered away the blessings he had, he might of his own will hasten back with desire to the first blessedness ...either being purged in this life through prayer and discipline, or after his departure hence through the furnace of cleansing fire.--Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.)

That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, "You will never get out until you hqave paid the last penny" unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. --Peter Chrysologus, 435

I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. --St. Jerome

Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. -- Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church

While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.--Athanasius, the Great Father of Orthodoxy

Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up... The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners. --Jerome

In the liberation of all no one remains a captive! At the time of the Lord's passion the devil alone was injured by losing all the of the captives he was keeping. --Didymus, 370 AD

While the devil imagined that he got a hold of Christ, he really lost all of those he was keeping. --St. Chrysostom, 398 AD

Stronger than all the evils in the soul is the Word, and the healing power that dwells in him, and this healing He applies, according to the will of God, to everyman. The consummation of all things is the destruction of evil…to quote Zephaniah: “My determination to gather the nations, that I am assemble the kings, to pour upon them mine indignation, even say all my fierce anger, for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent”…Consider carefully the promise, that all shall call upon the Name of the Lord, and serve him with one consent.—Origen (185 to 254 A.D.) He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.

The nations are gathered to the Judgment, that on them may be poured out the wrath of the fury of the Lord, and this in pity and with a design to heal. in order that every one may return to the confession of the Lord, that in Jesus' Name every knee may bow, and every tongue may confess that He is Lord. All God's enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies.—Jerome (340 to 420 A.D), commenting on Zephaniah 3:8-10

Mankind, being reclaimed from their sins, are to be subjected to Christ in he fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all. –Didymus the Blind

So then, when the end has been restored to the beginning, and the termination of things compared with their commencement, that condition of things will be re-established in which rational nature was placed, when it had no need to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; so that when all feeling of wickedness has been removed, and the individual has been purified and cleansed, He who alone is the one good God becomes to him "all," and that not in the case of a few individuals, or of a considerable number, but He Himself is "all in all." And when death shall no longer anywhere exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then verily God will be "all in all" --Origen, De Prinicipiis, 3.6.3. (Origen founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.)

The Son "breaking in pieces" His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jeremiah 18;6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state. --Eusebius of Caesarea (65 to 340 A.D). Bishop of Caesarea

Our Savior has appointed two kinds of resurrection in the Apocalypse. 'Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection,' for such come to grace without the judgment. As for those who do not come to the first, but are reserved unto the second resurrection, these shall be disciplined until their appointed times, between the first and the second resurrection.-- Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397 A.D.)

We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued.... for Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. --Origen (185 to 254 A.D.) He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.

For it is needful that evil should some day be wholly and absolutely removed out of the circle of being. --Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church

In the present life God is in all, for His nature is without limits, but he is not all in all. But in the coming life, when mortality is at an end and immortality granted, and sin has no longer any place, God will be all in all. For the Lord, who loves man, punishes medicinally, that He may check the course of impeity. --Theodoret the Blessed, 387-458

When death shall no longer exist, or the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then truly God will be all in all. --Origen

All men are Christ's, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some and the rest not. For how is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all?—Clement of Alexandria

“Hence, another meaning of subjection is understood by Paul as opposite to the common one. The exposition of the term 'subjection' as used here does not mean the forceful, necessary subjection of enemies as is commonly meant; while on the other hand, salvation is clearly interpreted by subjection. ... Paul mentions this in his Epistle to the Romans: ‘For if we have been enemies, we have been reconciled to God’ [Rom 5.10]. Here Paul calls subjection reconciliation, one term indicating salvation by another word. For as salvation is brought near to us by subjection, Paul says in another place, ‘Being reconciled, we shall be saved in this life’ [Rom 5.10]. Therefore, Paul says that such enemies are to be subjected to God and the Father; death no longer is to have authority. This is shown by Paul saying, ‘Death will be destroyed,’ a clear statement that the power of evil will be utterly removed: persons are called enemies of God by disobedience, while those who have become the Lord's friends are persuaded by Paul saying, ‘We are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: Be reconciled to God’ [2Cor 6.20]. ... St. Gregory

“In this passage is signified, that when evil has been obliterated in the long circuits of the ages, nothing shall be left outside the limits of good; but even from them [all creatures made by God] shall be unanimously uttered the confession of the Lordship of Christ.” St. Gregory

“For it is evident that God will, in truth, be ‘in all’ then when there shall be no evil seen in anything. ... When every created being is at harmony with itself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body, then shall the body of Christ be subject to the Father. ... Now the body of Christ, as I have said often before, is the whole of humanity. ... When it says that God’s enemies shall be subjected to God, this is meant that the power of evil shall be taken away, and they who, on account of their disobedience were called God’s enemies, shall by subjection be made God’s friends. When, then, all who were once God’s enemies, shall have been made His footstool (because they will then receive in themselves the divine imprint), when death shall have been destroyed; in the subjection of all, which is not servile humility, but immortality and Christ is said by the apostle Paul to be made subject to God.” St. Gregory

here are some references:
• Brian E. Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church: A Handbook of Patristic Eschatology (Cambridge: Cambridge University, 1991)

• J.W. Hanson, Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church during its First Five Hundred Years (Boston and Chicago: Universalist Publishing House, 1899).

if anyone wants more references, i'll be gladly to do any research possible to find the references. and the more i find the quote, the more i'll post, no matter if this thread became invisible.​