Actually worried about HELL?

[CLAY1960]

The threat of Hell has been used far to often to scare people into conforming to a set of beliefs held by whatever church is preaching the "do this or go to hell" sermon.... So in essence it is a means of control.... and it works for awhile... then people get smart....

 

[Clement of Alexandria]

The point is that all of this theology about the imposition and forebearance of divine penalties, and the whys and wherefores of Christ's death is just a bunch of nonsense.

To regard any suffering with satisfaction, save it be sympathetically with its curative quality, comes of evil, is inhuman because undivine, is a thing God is incapable of.

His nature is always to forgive, and just because he forgives, he punishes. Because God is so altogether alien to wrong, because it is to him a heart-pain and trouble that one of his little ones should do the evil thing, there is no extreme of suffering to which, for the sake of destroying the evil thing in them, he would not subject them. A man might flatter, or bribe, or coax a tyrant; but there is no refuge from the love of God; that love will, for very love, insist upon the uttermost farthing.

Justice and mercy are simply one and the same thing; without justice to the full there can be no mercy, and without mercy to the full there can be no justice. Such is the mercy of God that he will hold his children in the consuming fire of his distance until they pay the uttermost farthing, until they drop the purse of selfishness with all the dross that is in it, and rush home to the Father and the Son, and the many brethren—rush inside the centre of the life—giving fire whose outer circles burn.

No hell will be lacking which would help the just mercy of God to redeem his children.

Now why, dammit, did the Bible not spell this out as clearly?

 

[CLAY1960]

ummm because that was not the purpose of "the bible." I think the formulation of the "bible" was for control....

 

[SpaceMan]

...I choose not to believe in a literal hell until better information comes available to

me.

How's this?



http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal.htm



It appears that there is no 'hell'...it was a mistranslated word/concept, all along...

 

[Soul Searcher]

How's this?



http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal.htm



It appears that there is no 'hell'...it was a mistranslated word/concept, all along...

Very interesting link

 

[Mailman Dan]

Most people who do not believe in what the bible says about hell, do so because they do not understand the seriousness of sin, and how it offends a holy God.

I can deny the law of gravity, and make claims it doesn't exist. Of course, the minute I jump off the roof of a building, my beliefs become reality, since gravity doesn't exist, and I fly.

Once one can understand how serious sin is in God's site, they can understand why God must punish all evil.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


I do understand cults that deny why it exist. Once you remove judgement for sin, you also destroy any thought of repentance toward God.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (New King James Version)

and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Once the truth is seen, that God demands justice, then the value of what Christ did for those who trust in Him becomes truely good news. Those that deny this truth will find out the laws of sin and death don't alter to fit their beliefs, but remain absolutes.

Jude 1:23[font=&quot]
but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire[/font]

Dan~~~>suggest taking the test (www.needgod.com)

 

[loriersea]

Most people who do not believe in what the bible says about hell, do so because they do not understand the seriousness of sin, and how it offends a holy God.

Please explain how a holy God could torture the vast majority of all humanity infinitely.

People who don't believe in the conservative Christian interpretation of hell do so because they understand that there is simply no way that eternal torture for anyone can be compatible with love, mercy, or justice. They take the idea of hell seriously, and realize that there could be nothing more evil than torturing the vast majority of humanity for all eternity because they did not believe the right thing, or because of wrongs they committed during a finite human life.

It has nothing to do with not taking sin seriously, but with taking hell seriously, and taking the ideas of love, mercy, and justice seriously.

There is nothing holy about condemning people to an eternity of torture. That is not holy, it is evil. If you believe that will happen, you should be praying every single second, every single day, that it not be true. You should never stop arguing with God about it. To do otherwise is to acquiesce to evil.

I just cannot imagine how it must pain God to have people attribute the most horrible evil imaginable to him. I honestly cannot think of a greater sin.

 

[NormalRyan]

Perhaps I already said this, but if God is suppose to be a loving God, then he would just make people be put into oblivion and be bored to death for a 100 years or something then if they said I'm sorry they could come to heaven. However, eternity in a lake of fire just for doubting something that isn't clear in the first place? God would not deserve my admiration if I thought for a second that, that is the case.

I think the point is that us liberals or thinking Christians don't believe in the inerrancy in the bible in the first place. For instance:

1 Kg. 8:9"There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt." 2 Chr 5:10"There was nothing in the ark save the two tables which Moses put therein at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of Egypt." Uhhh *** mang?

Heb 9:4"The ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant."
The bible also says that rabbits chew cud (uhh no), a bat is a bird (wrong again), & the big one is that is says the earth is flat.

If you believe the bible is inerrant, ok fine. However, you must do so out of willful ignorance.

 

[invisible trousers]

Please explain how a holy God could torture the vast majority of all humanity infinitely.

People who don't believe in the conservative Christian interpretation of hell do so because they understand that there is simply no way that eternal torture for anyone can be compatible with love, mercy, or justice. They take the idea of hell seriously, and realize that there could be nothing more evil than torturing the vast majority of humanity for all eternity because they did not believe the right thing, or because of wrongs they committed during a finite human life.

It has nothing to do with not taking sin seriously, but with taking hell seriously, and taking the ideas of love, mercy, and justice seriously.

There is nothing holy about condemning people to an eternity of torture. That is not holy, it is evil. If you believe that will happen, you should be praying every single second, every single day, that it not be true. You should never stop arguing with God about it. To do otherwise is to acquiesce to evil.

I just cannot imagine how it must pain God to have people attribute the most horrible evil imaginable to him. I honestly cannot think of a greater sin.

Indeed. I find it slightly disturbing that people have a view of God which makes Him indistinguishable from (if not worse than) satan.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Please explain how a holy God could torture the vast majority of all humanity infinitely.

People who don't believe in the conservative Christian interpretation of hell do so because they understand that there is simply no way that eternal torture for anyone can be compatible with love, mercy, or justice. They take the idea of hell seriously, and realize that there could be nothing more evil than torturing the vast majority of humanity for all eternity because they did not believe the right thing, or because of wrongs they committed during a finite human life.

It has nothing to do with not taking sin seriously, but with taking hell seriously, and taking the ideas of love, mercy, and justice seriously.

There is nothing holy about condemning people to an eternity of torture. That is not holy, it is evil. If you believe that will happen, you should be praying every single second, every single day, that it not be true. You should never stop arguing with God about it. To do otherwise is to acquiesce to evil.

I just cannot imagine how it must pain God to have people attribute the most horrible evil imaginable to him. I honestly cannot think of a greater sin.

just want to say

 

[Soul Searcher]

I do understand cults that deny why it exist. Once you remove judgement for sin, you also destroy any thought of repentance toward God.

Is that not exactly what mainstream Christianity does when it says that all sins will be forgiven if you believe? Seems like they don't take them seriously at all.

I and many others who do not believe in hell believe that we will all account for our sins and will be chastized for them wether in this life or the next, no free pass but no eternal torment either. Justice demands that correction be given, mercy demands that it not be any more severe than required to accomplish the task at hand.

 

[SpaceMan]

I don’t know…I’m still struggling with the concept of a sin as being something like a traffic ticket, and when you’ve accrued too many of them, God revokes your license and sends you to hell…



To my mind, committing a sin is a time to reflect about how you fell-short of what you think God wants for you; it is a moment to meditate on how one might find a less hurtful alternative next time. I don’t believe that every sin necessarily translates to an act of “evil”…and so this kind of thinking:

Most people who do not believe in what the bible says about hell, do so because they do not understand the seriousness of sin, and how it offends a holy God.

…really runs counter to my own beliefs. To my mind, God is not “offended” when we sin…rather, God is merely saddened…

 

[mark53]

ummm because that was not the purpose of "the bible." I think the formulation of the "bible" was for control....

Should that 'was' have 'and still is!' added to it!?!!
Isn't that part of the argument used by many fundmentalists!
They either / or see God must 'control' this world to the way they see it. or, God is not powerful and wise enough to do it himself so someone must do it for him!

 

[mark53]

How's this?
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal.htm

It appears that there is no 'hell'...it was a mistranslated word/concept, all along...

Spot on!!

Part of the problem that has happened over the many centuries is man's understanding of what God says to him and those under his control. Also trying to interpretet Aramaic to written Greek then to many other languages along the way to we get to today's English.
But, I think 'Control' is the major problem with religion as a whole. It becomes I control you, instead of what does this "God" desire for me and those on this planet.

 

[SpaceMan]

Yep. There certainly can be a night & day difference between being "religious" and being "spiritual"...

 

[mark53]

Yep. There certainly can be a night & day difference between being "religious" and being "spiritual"...

Are doctrines and rule sticking to = being religious
And letting 'God' (or whatever we call him/her!) being displayed in our lives to other people being spiritual.

 

[Mailman Dan]

Please explain how a holy God could torture the vast majority of all humanity infinitely.

The existence of hell and the surety of the judgment are not the claims of fallible man. The Bible is the source of the claim, and it is utterly infallible. When someone becomes a Christian, he is admitting that he was in the wrong, and that God is justified in His declarations that we have sinned against Him.

However, let’s surmise for a moment that there is no Judgment Day and no hell. That would mean that the Bible is a huge hoax, in which more than forty authors collaborated (over a period of 3,000 years) to produce a document revealing God’s character as "just." They portrayed Him as a just judge, who warned that He would eventually punish murderers, rapists, liars, thieves, adulterers, etc. Each of those writers (who professed to be godly) therefore bore false witness, transgressing the very commandments they claimed to be true.

It would mean that Jesus Christ was a liar, and that all the claims He made about the reality of judgment were there-fore false. It would also mean that He gave His life in vain, as did multitudes of martyrs who have given their lives for the cause of Christ. Add to that the thought that if there is no ultimate justice, it means that the Creator of all things is unjust—that He sees murder and rape and couldn’t care less, making Him worse than a corrupt human judge who refuses to bring criminals to justice.

Here’s the good news, though, if there is no hell: You won’t know a thing after you die. It will be the end. No heaven, no hell. Just nothing. You won’t even realize that it’s good news.

Here’s the bad news if the Bible is right and that there is eternal justice: You will find yourself standing before the judgment throne of a holy God, who has seen every sin you have ever committed. Think of it. A holy and perfect Creator has seen your thought-life and every secret sin you have ever committed. You have a multitude of sins, and God must by nature carry out justice. Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. Ask Him to bring to remembrance your secret sexual sins, the lies, the gossip, and other idle words. You may have forgotten your past sins, but God hasn’t. Hell will be your just desert (exactly what you deserve), and you will have no one to blame but yourself. This is the claim of the Bible. If you don’t believe it, it is still true. It will still happen.

Yet, there is good news—incredibly good news. We deserve judgment, but God offers us mercy through the cross. He paid our fine so that we could leave the courtroom. He destroyed the power of the grave for all who obey Him. Simply obey the gospel, and live. By doing that you will find out for yourself that the gospel is indeed the "gospel truth." Jesus said that if you obey Him, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free (see John 8:31,32).

Get on your knees today, confess and forsake your sins. Tell God you are truly sorry, then trust the Savior as you would trust yourself to a parachute. Then you will find yourself in a terrible dilemma. You will know for certain that hell is a reality. When you get up the courage to warn people you care about, they will smile passively, and say, "Could you be wrong in your claims about Judgment Day and the existence of hell?"

I find it slightly disturbing that people have a view of God which makes Him indistinguishable from (if not worse than) satan.

(The old, My god would never create hell arguement)

Those who say that are right: their "god" would never create hell, because he couldn’t. He doesn’t exist. He is a figment of their imagination, a god they have created to suit themselves. It’s called "idolatry," and it’s the oldest sin in the Book. Idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of God. The one true God, however, could and did create hell for those who reject His mercy. They will reap His just wrath.


Sinners often accuse God of being unjust, because they assume that everyone will receive the same punishment in hell. God’s judgment, however, will be according to righteousness (Acts 17:31).


There are three words translated "hell" in Scripture:
Gehenna (Greek): The place of punishment (Matthew 5:22,29; 10:28; and James 3:6)
Hades (Greek): The abode of the dead (Matthew 11:23; 16:18, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27)
Sheol (Hebrew): The grave (Psalm 9:17; 16:10)

There are those who accept that hell is a place of punishment, but believe that the punishment is to be annihilated—to cease conscious existence. They can’t conceive that the punishment of the wicked will be conscious and eternal. If they are correct, then a man like Adolph Hitler, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, is being "punished" merely with eternal sleep. His fate is simply to return to the non-existent state he was in before he was born, where he doesn’t even know that he is being punished.

However, Scripture paints a different story. The rich man who found himself in hell (Luke 16:19–31) was conscious. He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of "torment." If hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus' statements about hell make no sense. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43–48).

The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following:

• "Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
• "Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)
• "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)
• "Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)
• "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)
• "Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
• "Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."



Dan~~~>can't let it go without fair warning

 

[Tangnefedd]

If all that is true Dan, then God is an uspeakable monster and worse than anyone who is destined for hell!

 

[Clement of Alexandria]

Dan, the theology you present here represents a failure of the imagination and the character. God is good -- he does not punish except to amend. How then, is there eternal suffering for some humans? How then is there virtuous judgment and true justice and holiness? These are questions that you need to answer, and these are questions that your one dimension theology does not answer.

Here are some hints -- God is a consuming fire of love. Many creative theologians have come up with the same answer: George MacDonald, C.S. Lewis, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Isaac of Syria. The truth is right under your nose, and in the Bible, even.

But first, you must become a person who can no longer be satisfied with the idea that it is divinely virtuous to render penalties of suffering. While you are capable of being satisfied with this idea, there would be no advantage in your becoming intellectually convinced that such thoughts were wrong.

 

[LiberatedChick]

They portrayed Him as a just judge, who warned that He would eventually punish murderers, rapists, liars, thieves, adulterers, etc.

Except He won't....least not according to conventional beliefs...if murderers, rapists, liars, thieves, adulterers etc turn to God and repent then they are saved.

It would mean that Jesus Christ was a liar, and that all the claims He made about the reality of judgment were there-fore false. It would also mean that He gave His life in vain, as did multitudes of martyrs who have given their lives for the cause of Christ. Add to that the thought that if there is no ultimate justice, it means that the Creator of all things is unjust—that He sees murder and rape and couldn’t care less, making Him worse than a corrupt human judge who refuses to bring criminals to justice.

Oh no, Christ is not a liar...it's the translation that is dodgy. And He gave his life to save us from the consequences of sin...which is death. And no eternal hell doesn't mean there is no punishment at all.

Here’s the bad news if the Bible is right and that there is eternal justice: You will find yourself standing before the judgment throne of a holy God, who has seen every sin you have ever committed. Think of it. A holy and perfect Creator has seen your thought-life and every secret sin you have ever committed. You have a multitude of sins, and God must by nature carry out justice. Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. Ask Him to bring to remembrance your secret sexual sins, the lies, the gossip, and other idle words. You may have forgotten your past sins, but God hasn’t. Hell will be your just desert (exactly what you deserve), and you will have no one to blame but yourself. This is the claim of the Bible. If you don’t believe it, it is still true. It will still happen.

Yet, there is good news—incredibly good news. We deserve judgment, but God offers us mercy through the cross. He paid our fine so that we could leave the courtroom. He destroyed the power of the grave for all who obey Him. Simply obey the gospel, and live. By doing that you will find out for yourself that the gospel is indeed the "gospel truth." Jesus said that if you obey Him, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free (see John 8:31,32).

Get on your knees today, confess and forsake your sins. Tell God you are truly sorry, then trust the Savior as you would trust yourself to a parachute. Then you will find yourself in a terrible dilemma. You will know for certain that hell is a reality. When you get up the courage to warn people you care about, they will smile passively, and say, "Could you be wrong in your claims about Judgment Day and the existence of hell?"

I've repented of my sins thank you very much. I also trust and thank my saviour every day of my life

There are three words translated "hell" in Scripture:
Gehenna (Greek): The place of punishment (Matthew 5:22,29; 10:28; and James 3:6)
Hades (Greek): The abode of the dead (Matthew 11:23; 16:18, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27)
Sheol (Hebrew): The grave (Psalm 9:17; 16:10)

Correct, but Gehenna is actually a place just outside Jerusalem. It used to be a rubbish pit, it's now a public park...I can show you pictures if you'd like. I'd love to go there one day...I could tell everyone I've actually been to hell and it was rather nice

If they are correct, then a man like Adolph Hitler, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, is being "punished" merely with eternal sleep. His fate is simply to return to the non-existent state he was in before he was born, where he doesn’t even know that he is being punished.

And if you are correct, then if a man like Adolph Hitler (who was responsible for the deaths of millions) accepted Christ and repented before he killed himself he'd be putting his feet up in heaven.

Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."

See the bible says a lot of things are "forever and ever" when they aren't. I believe there's verses in the OT that specify a city and say it will burn "forever and ever" or with "unquenchable fire" or the like...if such places were still burning today then I'd be more likely to believe that "forever and ever" actually means what it says.