Actual statements by synergists

[Skala]

This is the exact same method the cultists employ. Just yesterday at CARM I posted to a Christadelphian that Paul said that Christ pre-existed in the form of God. Christadelphians deny both Christ's divinity and His pre-existence. The Christadelphian said, "Point to me where Paul used the word "pre-existed."

I replied saying,

Well, if you are looking for a word that is equivalent to our English word "pre-existed," then you couldn't prove that God preexisted. Don't be silly. You know that God pre-existed because the scripture says that He was (huparxwn). You know very well that Paul said that Jesus was (huparxwn) in the form of God. Therefore, Christ pre-existed in the form of God.

I have been trying to get FG2 to see the folly of his methods but he will not listen.

Exactly! They want the exact word. Makes you wonder how these people function in regular day to day activities like reading the newspaper, etc.

 

[Hammster]

I said this:
So, one is impressed with the 46 English translators regarding one verse (Acts 13:48), yet not at all impressed with those SAME translators on another verse (Heb 2:9) which clearly state that Jesus died for everyone.


What's to interpret? i am in full agreement with all 46 translators. Jesus died for everyone.

Here's a reminder of how the 46 translators rendered "pas":

EVERYONE - 25
Common English Bible
Contemporary English Version
Easy-To-Read Version
ESV
ESV Anglicized
Expanded Bible
God’s Word
Good News Translation
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Lexham English Bible
Mounce Reverse Interlinear NT
Names of God Bible
NASB
New Century Version
NET
NIRV
NIV
NKJV
NLT
NRSV
NRSV anglicized
NRSV anglicized Catholic
NRSV Catholic
The Voice
World English Bible

EVERY ONE - 3
RSV
RSV Catholic
Young’s Literal Translation

EVERY MAN - 6
21st Century KJV
ASV
JB Phillips NT
Jubilee Bible 2000
KJV
Authorized KJV

EVERY INDIVIDUAL PERSON - 1
Amplified Bible

ALL HUMANITY - 1
Complete Jewish Bible

EVERY THING - 2
Darby Translation
Douay-Rheims1899 American Ed

ALL MEN - 2
1599 Geneva
Wycliffe

ON BEHALF OF ALL - 2
Knox Bible
Orthodox Jewish Bible

EVERY PERSON’S PLACE - 1
The Message

ALL OF US - 1
New Life Version

EVERY PERSON - 1
Worldwide English NT

How in the world anyone would think these 46 translators would think that Jesus only died for some is really baffling.

If there ever was a verse that speaks to the scope of who Christ died for, Heb 2:9 is the one. What an opportunity to make it crystal clear.

54% of translations used "everyone", hardly a word that supports RT.

And none of the rest could remotely be used to support RT.

The Complete Jewish Bible renders "pas" as "all of humanity". How does that support RT? NOT.

There's a difference between translating and interpreting.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There's a difference between translating and interpreting.

Dodging my point once again.

And tell that to the 46 translators.

 

[Jack Terrence]

What's to interpret? I am in full agreement with all 46 translators. Jesus died for everyone.

Does not the word "all" require interpretation in 1 Corinthians 15:22?


King James Bible
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For just as by Adam all people die, in this way also by The Messiah they all live;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
As everyone dies because of Adam, so also everyone will be made alive because of Christ.

 

[Hammster]

Dodging my point once again.

And tell that to the 46 translators.

I'm not dodging. I don't disagree with the translations. I disagree with your interpretation.

 

[Jack Terrence]

I disagree with your interpretation.

One must bury his head in the sand to say that he is not interpreting the word "all" in Hebrews 2:9. The word "all" ALWAYS requires interpretation. 1 Corinthians 15:22 is a perfect example.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Does not the word "all" require interpretation in 1 Corinthians 15:22?

No. The meaning is quite obvious and clear.

The first "all" refers to all of humanity. The second "all" refers to all believers, which is indicated by the phrase "in Christ".

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm not dodging. I don't disagree with the translations. I disagree with your interpretation.

You agree with these?

ALL HUMANITY - 1
Complete Jewish Bible

EVERY PERSON - 1
Worldwide English NT

EVERY INDIVIDUAL PERSON - 1
Amplified Bible

EVERYONE - 25
Common English Bible
Contemporary English Version
Easy-To-Read Version
ESV
ESV Anglicized
Expanded Bible
God’s Word
Good News Translation
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Lexham English Bible
Mounce Reverse Interlinear NT
Names of God Bible
NASB
New Century Version
NET
NIRV
NIV
NKJV
NLT
NRSV
NRSV anglicized
NRSV anglicized Catholic
NRSV Catholic
The Voice
World English Bible

One must commit eisegesis in order to warp these words to mean "only the elect".

 

[Hammster]

You agree with these?

ALL HUMANITY - 1
Complete Jewish Bible

EVERY PERSON - 1
Worldwide English NT

EVERY INDIVIDUAL PERSON - 1
Amplified Bible

EVERYONE - 25
Common English Bible
Contemporary English Version
Easy-To-Read Version
ESV
ESV Anglicized
Expanded Bible
God’s Word
Good News Translation
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Lexham English Bible
Mounce Reverse Interlinear NT
Names of God Bible
NASB
New Century Version
NET
NIRV
NIV
NKJV
NLT
NRSV
NRSV anglicized
NRSV anglicized Catholic
NRSV Catholic
The Voice
World English Bible

One must commit eisegesis in order to warp these words to mean "only the elect".

I agree that all means all. Any extra words go from a translation to an interpretation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I agree that all means all. Any extra words go from a translation to an interpretation.

But you admitted that you agree with all 46 translations. Now you're backpedaling a lot. The Complete Jewish Bible translators understood the writer to mean "all of humanity". And you said you agreed with the translators.

So, just not actually telling the truth, huh.

 

[Hammster]

But you admitted that you agree with all 46 translations. Now you're backpedaling a lot. The Complete Jewish Bible translators understood the writer to mean "all of humanity". And you said you agreed with the translators.

So, just not actually telling the truth, huh.

Misspoke, that's all. I've corrected myself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Misspoke, that's all. I've corrected myself.

Backpedaled. Got it.

 

[Hammster]

Backpedaled. Got it.

If that's how you choose to look at it, I can't help it. I would rather you just took me at my word.

 

[Jack Terrence]

No. The meaning is quite obvious and clear.

The first "all" refers to all of humanity. The second "all" refers to all believers, which is indicated by the phrase "in Christ".

You said that "all" in Hebrews 2:9 needs no interpretation. Now you deny that "all" in 1 Cor. 15:22 needs no interpretation. Yet you interpreted the "all" in clause 2 differently from the "all" in clause 1. You INTERPRETED.

Do you think people here were born yesterday?

One of the translations I provided for 1 Cor. 15:22 says "everyone" in both clauses. Yet you interpret "everyone" in the first clause as "every human being," but not in the second clause. You INTERPRETED. I rest my case.

Based upon the Protestant "Line upon line" principle of interpretation I interpret the "all" in Hebrews 2:9 as "the many sons of glory" of verse 10. You cannot disprove my interpretation.

Thank you for your assisting me in disproving you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If that's how you choose to look at it, I can't help it. I would rather you just took me at my word.

I did. You first said you agreed with all the translations from Biblegateway, and when I pointed out a number of them, you flip flopped on your initial statement.

If one wishes others to take them at their word, it's necessary to be honest and consistent in their word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said that "all" in Hebrews 2:9 needs no interpretation. Now you deny that "all" in 1 Cor. 15:22 needs no interpretation. Yet you interpreted the "all" in clause 2 differently from the "all" in clause 1. You INTERPRETED.

Who wouldn't think they refer to different groups?

Do you think people here were born yesterday?

I don't know. Several days ago, maybe?

One of the translations I provided for 1 Cor. 15:22 says "everyone" in both clauses. Yet you interpret "everyone" in the first clause as "every human being," but not in the second clause. You INTERPRETED. I rest my case.

OK, some here may need a rest. That's ok. The sentence itself clearly indicates different groups. It doesn't take "interpretation".

Based upon the Protestant "Line upon line" principle of interpretation I interpret the "all" in Hebrews 2:9 as "the many sons of glory" of verse 10. You cannot disprove my interpretation.

Yes, easily disproved. v.9 follows v.8 and is in THAT context, not in the context of the next paragraph starting in v.10.

Note the beginning word in v.9, "de" in the Greek. This is what my lexicon says about it:
"a conjunctive particle, marking the superaddition of a clause, whether in opposition or in continuation, to what has preceded, and it may be variously rendered but, on the other hand, and, also, now, etc."

What is important is what I bolded for emphasis: "what has preceded". So, what just preceded v.9? v.8 of course, where the author used "pas" 3 times while quoting from Psa 8, which was about mankind being over ALL creation. The contrast between v.8 and v.9 is that while man was put over ALL of creation, Jesus died for all of humanity.

That is proper exegesis. Your attempt to force v.9 into v.10 violates the Greek conjunctive participle and is a blatant attempt at eisegesis.

Thank you for your assisting me in disproving you.

I will be happy to hand over a napkin with which to wipe off all that egg on the face.

Your eisegesis does not hold up to my exegesis.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Who wouldn't think they refer to different groups?

The Universalists don't think they are different groups. 1 Corinthians 15:22 is one of their proof texts. I can't believe you had to ask. The Calvinists don't think they are different groups.

OK, some here may need a rest. That's ok. The sentence itself clearly indicates different groups. It doesn't take "interpretation".

No, it does NOT indicate different groups. Universalists don't think so. And Calvinists don't think so. Universalists say that "all" refers to every human being in both clauses. Calvinists say it is about the people of God in both clauses.

Paul was writing to the people of God about THEIR original state in Adam and remedy in Christ. That all other men may have died in Adam was not part of Paul's symmetrical argument.

In Adam all the people of God died. In Christ all the people of God are made alive.

The Universalist and Calvinst interpretations maintain the symmetry. But your INTERPRETATION breaks it down.

Yes, easily disproved. v.9 follows v.8 and is in THAT context, not in the context of the next paragraph starting in v.10.

Huh? I don't follow you. Verse 8 speaks about all His enemies being put under His feet. Verse 10 indicates the PURPOSE of His death which was to bring the "many sons" to glory. Purpose = extent.

 

[Skala]

Bump with a new quote!

 

[Hammster]

I did. You first said you agreed with all the translations from Biblegateway, and when I pointed out a number of them, you flip flopped on your initial statement.

If one wishes others to take them at their word, it's necessary to be honest and consistent in their word.

I'm not denying an error in what I said earlier. I corrected myself.

 

[konroh]

Acts 13:48 is a beautiful synergistic picture.

God "appoints" the Gk tasso is not just "get in line for" it's (táss&#333 was "primarily a military term meaning 'to draw up in order, arrange in place, assign, appoint, order'

Man's side: belief
God's side: appoint

2 Peter 1:10 is also beautiful: We are called and elected, we are to make this sure in our lives.
bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety).

It's not that we could lose our salvation but we should build on the strong foundation of God's calling and electing us.