Acts 21-28 Paul is a Messianic Jew and declares his views under oath

[BobRyan]

why would Paul want his young disciples, near the Jews on their turf the synagogues, who for the most part hated Paul, whereby they would hate his converts too?



Acts 20:19
serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the plots of the Jews;

Acts 15 declares that the Christians are hearing scripture every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

This is true even of non-Christian gentiles as we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18, not just true of Paul and James.

If you follow the Acts history you find that it is Jews from prior towns - Jerusalem and elsewhere the come in as out-of-town antagonists and nothing in the text says "they are limited to the synagogues".

But that is another story - because in the OP the question is about Paul's own sworn testimony about his own teaching and practice. Testimony in Acts 21-28 that is primarily given before non-Christian Gentile authorities.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.



[FONT=&quot]Acts 21
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT][/FONT]

Seems to me you're freely admitting the synagogue wasn't an assembly of Christians as you have always seemed to say. Why the change in tactics?

bugkiller

Interesting mischaracterization in your post.

I never claim there are no non-Christians in the synagogues - as we probably all know and agree.

Rather it is an assembly of the god-fearing gentiles and Jews as well as the Christian Jews and Gentiles as we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18. But with the many thousands of Christians in Jerusalem -- they are in the Temple with the non-christians according to James in Acts 15.

The testimony of Paul in the quotes given above - are perfectly consistent with that Acts 15 fact.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I'll be nice and say your argument is based on misunderstanding. I could also say something else and be 100% correct at this time in your posting history.

bugkiller

j

Why not say something accurate - like "your posts are excellent and show affirming proof in the text from Acts 21-28"??

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Frogster

what do unsaved gentiles in a synagogue, have to do with the church? Are unsaved people our example?
​

Paul goes to the synagogues each Sabbath to share the Gospel with god-fearing Jews and gentiles .

If Mary was lost the entire time she lived before the cross -- then so also was John the baptizer - lost the entire time, also Samuel, David, Nathan, Job, after all they failed to "live after the cross" and so by some gospels that would be "lost".

OR you could go with the idea that the Jews after the cross he had yet to hear of Christ - were just as saved/lost as the Jews before the cross who had yet to hear of Jesus as the Christ.

in any case - Paul is clear as to what HIS practice was.

bro, you're drifting here. bottom line, they were unsaved gentiles in the synagogues, that is a fact.

Nobody believes that everybody in the OT was lost -- at least not that I have seen on this board.

Paul says Timothy was saved as a child in 2Tim 3:15-17.

The "God fearing gentiles" that are mentioned is never a statement for "the lost pagans" or "the wicked" -- that is never the case in the NT.

Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 give excellent evidence in favor of James' statement in Acts 15 - which says that the church members are hearing Moses every Sabbath in the Synagogues. Notice that he does not say "in the temple" -- because he is not talking as much about the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem - as he is speaking about the Christian gentiles outside of Israel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[listed]

j

Why not say something accurate - like "your posts are excellent and show affirming proof in the text from Acts 21-28"??

Maybe because my friend is not given to violating the 9th commandment.

 

[listed]

It is correct nobody believes the Old Testament saints were not saved. The real issue here is when they acquired that salvation. To say they acquired salvation under the law is a false statement.

 

[Frogster]

Excellent question.

bugkiller

thanks!

 

[Frogster]

Acts 15 declares that the Christians are hearing scripture every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

This is true even of non-Christian gentiles as we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18, not just true of Paul and James.

If you follow the Acts history you find that it is Jews from prior towns - Jerusalem and elsewhere the come in as out-of-town antagonists and nothing in the text says "they are limited to the synagogues".

But that is another story - because in the OP the question is about Paul's own sworn testimony about his own teaching and practice. Testimony in Acts 21-28 that is primarily given before non-Christian Gentile authorities.

in Christ,

Bob

I have posted ample common sense posts, to show that Paul would not want them in the synagogues, after going to Jerusalem to fight off Judaism. Judaism was in the synagogues.

Why would he want his converts near the Jews who plotted against Paul, and would try to judaize the church, the very thing Paul did not want?

Why would he want them near the persecutory zealots, who gathered in the synagogues, and forced circumcision, the very thing Paul fought in Acts 15?


Why on the way to the meeting in Acts 15, did he stop at churches, not synagogues to see Christians, and likewise after the meeting he went to churches, not synagogues to see Christians? Why?


The synagogue leaders opened up Paul's back 5 times, as per 2 Cor 11. They would not want Jesus praising gentiles in their synagogues, the synagogues were where the unsaved Jews were, Paul's opponents and enemies, it was 49 AD. All James was saying was, don't freak out the Jews, all they knew for centuries was the law, this was a transitional period, something you don't seem to know. Jew and Greek were becoming one body, so there would be tensions.


So Bob, you can keep on saying it, about 15:21, go ahead, nothing new here. But all someone has to do, is just read my facts, you don't offer facts, you just put a verse, and say it is what you want it to be, and offer no history, proof, nothing!

 

[BobRyan]

It is correct nobody believes the Old Testament saints were not saved. The real issue here is when they acquired that salvation. To say they acquired salvation under the law is a false statement.

To accuse me of making a false statement - you must first quote me making it.

My claim is that there is "ONE Gospel" in both NT and OT Gal 1:6-9 and that "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7 such that OT saints of Heb 11 were saved under that same Gospel - just as we are.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Acts 15 JAMES declares that the Christians are hearing scripture every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

This is true even of non-Christian gentiles as we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18, not just true of Paul and James.

If you follow the Acts history you find that it is Jews from prior towns - Jerusalem and elsewhere the come in as out-of-town antagonists and nothing in the text says "they are limited to the synagogues".

But that is another story - because in the OP the question is about Paul's own sworn testimony about his own teaching and practice. Testimony in Acts 21-28 that is primarily given before non-Christian Gentile authorities.

I have posted ample common sense posts, to show that Paul would not want them in the synagogues, after going to Jerusalem to fight off Judaism. Judaism was in the synagogues.

Why would he want his converts near the Jews who plotted against Paul, and would try to judaize the church, the very thing Paul did not want?

As noted above -

In Acts 15 JAMES declares that the Christians are hearing scripture every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

This is true even of non-Christian gentiles as we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18, not just true of Paul and James.

Why would he want them near the persecutory zealots,

Those in Acts 21 zealous for the Law are Christians.

The non-Christian Jews of Acts 13, 17, 18 are in the synagogues without persecuting the god-fearing gentiles at all.

James' point -- remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bugkiller]

There's nothing in Acts 15 to support the idea Christians were in the synagogues. There's nothing in Acts 15 requiring attendance at the synagogue. Verse 21 is nothing more than a historical statement.

The Jewish antagonist weren't always from out of town.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

It is also true that not all Jews were Christians. It is also true that God fearers weren't called Christians. Statements saying they were is misrepresentation at best.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

In Acts 15 JAMES declares that the Christians are hearing scripture every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

This is true even of non-Christian gentiles as we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18, not just true of Paul and James.

If you follow the Acts history you find that it is Jews from prior towns - Jerusalem and elsewhere the come in as out-of-town antagonists and nothing in the text says "they are limited to the synagogues".

But that is another story - because in the OP the question is about Paul's own sworn testimony about his own teaching and practice. Testimony in Acts 21-28 that is primarily given before non-Christian Gentile authorities.




As noted above -

In Acts 15 JAMES declares that the Christians are hearing scripture every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

This is true even of non-Christian gentiles as we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18, not just true of Paul and James.




Those in Acts 21 zealous for the Law are Christians.

The non-Christian Jews of Acts 13, 17, 18 are in the synagogues without persecuting the god-fearing gentiles at all.

James' point -- remains.

in Christ,

Bob

No, I have covered James enough, go ahead, just keep saying what it does not say. We are used to that.

Again, the zealots would tolerate a gentiles, because as Jesus said, you go over land and sea to make a convert. But a saved gentile says, Jesus was the messiah! Do you now see the difference? Of course they hoped for unsaved Gentiles in the gogues, but saved one told them they were wrong. That would be trouble!

Again, most know that the Jerusalem Jewish church was still keeping law, until when?

lol, Hebrews covers the 40 year testing period, 70 AD ended their law, and their church, so again lets remember history bro!

To say they are not limited to synagogues, is what? You don't think they heard Paul in the synagogues!:"? In Acts 17 they heard Paul in the synagogues!


Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews

Why does it say synagogue of the Jews?

You argue too much against history, and common understanding of the transitional tensions, of the times.

I posted over and over again, that by 49 the synagogues were hostile territory for the saints, and how Paul fought off the Judaizers, and zealots in the synagogues, but you ignore that. Why?

Where do you think the persecutors were, at the mall, or in the synagogues?


Gal 6:12 It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.


Please continue, because the more we post, the facts show on my side, just like a court case, so please...keep posting, thanks! frog.

 

[Frogster]

There's nothing in Acts 15 to support the idea Christians were in the synagogues. There's nothing in Acts 15 requiring attendance at the synagogue. Verse 21 is nothing more than a historical statement.

The Jewish antagonist weren't always from out of town.

bugkiller

It is also true that not all Jews were Christians. It is also true that God fearers weren't called Christians. Statements saying they were is misrepresentation at best.

bugkiller

yeas, your right in Acts 10 the God fearer Cornelius was not a Christian!

 

[Frogster]

There's nothing in Acts 15 to support the idea Christians were in the synagogues. There's nothing in Acts 15 requiring attendance at the synagogue. Verse 21 is nothing more than a historical statement.

The Jewish antagonist weren't always from out of town.

bugkiller

how true......you da man!

 

[BobRyan]

There's nothing in Acts 15 to support the idea Christians were in the synagogues.

Except for the Bible fact that we see them there in Acts 13, Acts 17 and Acts 18 (even non-Christian God-fearing gentiles are there) and except for what James says

13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 ‘After these things I will return,
And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen,
And I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will restore it,
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
18 Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.

19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”


It is obvious that James is not in charge of the entire Jewish nation - the words spoken here are in recognition of the fact that the gentiles over whom this debate is being had - are hearing the scriptures every Sabbath in the Synagogues - in every city ... And as we saw in Acts 13, 17, 18 this is true even of non-Christian yet God-fearing gentiles - not just the Christian gentiles.


in Christ,


Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It is also true that not all Jews were Christians. It is also true that God fearers weren't called Christians.

Every now and then you post something where at least part of it is in agreement with my position and with what I find clearly stated in the actual Bible.

That is an example.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Acts 15 JAMES declares that the Christians are hearing scripture every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

This is true even of non-Christian gentiles as we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18, not just true of Paul and James.

If you follow the Acts history you find that it is Jews from prior towns - Jerusalem and elsewhere the come in as out-of-town antagonists and nothing in the text says "they are limited to the synagogues".

But that is another story - because in the OP the question is about Paul's own sworn testimony about his own teaching and practice. Testimony in Acts 21-28 that is primarily given before non-Christian Gentile authorities.

I have posted ample common sense posts, to show that Paul would not want them in the synagogues, after going to Jerusalem to fight off Judaism. Judaism was in the synagogues.

Why would he want his converts near the Jews who plotted against Paul, and would try to judaize the church, the very thing Paul did not want?

As noted above -

In Acts 15 JAMES declares that the Christians are hearing scripture every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

This is true even of non-Christian gentiles as we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18, not just true of Paul and James.

Why would he want them near the persecutory zealots,

Those in Acts 21 zealous for the Law are Christians.

The non-Christian Jews of Acts 13, 17, 18 are in the synagogues without persecuting the god-fearing gentiles at all.

James' point -- remains.

No, I have covered James enough, go ahead

Fine ... I will.

I am ok with differences you are welcomed to your opinions.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bugkiller]

For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.


The above makes it obvious to even the casual reader Christians weren't in the synagogues.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

James does not say "no Christians are ever or were ever in the Synagogue" because this would be meaningless to the discussion at hand.

Recall James' own 'recommendation' in Acts 21 for Christians in Jerusalem - to demonstrate Christian Jews were complying with certain ceremonial laws in Acts 21?? Clearly James insisted on Christians in the Temple - not just Synagogues when it came to Jewish Christians.

How much more "helpful" his observation in Acts 15 that the Christian gentile debate was resolved by the fact that Christian gentiles hear scripture in the synagogues every Sabbath.

Not that they were keeping the ceremonial law - but were hearing scripture.

in Christ,

Bob