Acts 21-28 Paul is a Messianic Jew and declares his views under oath

[BobRyan]

by 49 AD the synagogues were just for the Jews, not the Jewish Christians let alone Gentile Christians,

What we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 is both Paul and non-Christian Gentiles in the Synagogues - Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath - for Gospel sermons. This is the picture of the weekly practice of the NT saints when they were more free to do as they wish.

No wonder James makes that appeal to Christians hearing scripture in the synagogues every Sabbath.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Paul did not even go to the temple for 17 years, gee, what kind of messianic would not go to temple for 17 years? lol


Over and over I proved all of this, without a substantial counter from you, you just kept pasting those same verses.

you have brought that up repeatedly and I have pretty much ignored it since we all know that Messianic Jews had access to their local synagogues "every Sabbath" as James points out in Acts 15.

I did not want to end your point too quickly by pointing this out early.
[ /quote]

Messianic Jew -- a Jew that accepts Jesus as the Messiah.

Many Jews were looking for the Messiah as Paul points out in Acts 24. But in Acts 21 we see actual Messianic Jews - those who accepted Jesus being addressed by Paul - who was taking that ceremonial vow for their benefit.

So then the Christian Jews (i.e. Messianic Jews that even today are defined as those Jews that accept Christ as the long-promised full-consistent-with-the-Bible Messiah) - were not often treated well by Jews of the NT that were not Messianic --- did not accept Christ as the promised Messiah.

Oh, why then were they chased out, put in prison and even murdered out right. Would you go to church knowing you would get beaten? They did that to Paul.

bugkiller

Missionaries/Evangelists treated badly by those who reject Christ as the Messiah - yep we see that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT][/FONT]

Should also have pointed out Acts 15

15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
...13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
​

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

As far as your other verses, on 2 threads I easily disected them, on my Paul fighting Messianic Judaism thread

Interesting. Well I am satisfied with the texts - as they read.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT][/FONT]
​

Should also have pointed out Acts 15

Acts 15
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

...

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
​

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

Originally Posted by Frogster

As far as your other verses, on 2 threads I easily disected them, on my Paul fighting Messianic Judaism thread
​

​

Interesting. Well I am satisfied with the texts - as they read.

which includes

notice then the "details" in Paul's clarification to his fellow Messianic Jews in Acts 21.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many on this board would be tempted to argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law..

And those who want to just focus on one tiny verse in Acts 21 -- Acts 21:25 to the exclusion of the entire episode - find that there in that one tiny verse gentiles are not commandment to "Love God with all their heart" or to "love your neighbor as yourself" nor even "thou shalt not murder" ... none of that is in Acts 21:25. Since obviously Acts 21:25 is NOT the "tiny 1 verse Bible left for gentiles" - but rather shows the restrictions from OT food laws that need to be held up as reminders for Gentiles as new practice they might not be familiar with.

What we have quoted there is this restriction from Lev 17 and eating meat with blood in it.

Acts 21:25
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”
​

In the case of the two above - they are from Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 -- quoted by Christ, and Paul and james 2 in Lev 19 form -- but not in Acts 21:25 or in Acts 15... because those two are not trying to downsize/resize scripture at all - they allow for all of it.

 

[BobRyan]

No wonder the Acts 24 discussion was a perfect fit for the quotes above --

Acts 24

12 Neither in the temple, nor in the synagogues, nor in the city itself did they find me carrying on a discussion with anyone or causing a riot. 13 Nor can they prove to you the charges of which they now accuse me. 14 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;



Notice Paul does not say "Believing just one or two things in scripture and totally in rebellion against all the rest of scripture"??

In fact not only does Paul affirm fellowship - brotherhood ""God of OUR fathers" but also " believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets"

Having the same Belief/hope in the coming Messiah also shared by the non-believing Jews, as well as a belief in the future resurrection that the Pharisees hold - but the Sadducees do not.




15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men. 17 Now after several years I came to bring alms to my nation and to present offerings; 18 in which they found me occupied in the temple,


Here affirms with them - "my nation" bringing alms "to MY nation" and presenting offerings - IN the temple!

What temple does the reader suppose that is?

"having been purified" ritually - ceremonially - and in the temple.

having been purified, without any crowd or uproar. But there were some Jews from Asia— 19 who ought to have been present before you and to make accusation, if they should have anything against me. 20 Or else let these men themselves tell what misdeed they found when I stood before the Council,

==================================

Beyond all doubt - chapter 24 shows Paul to be a messianic Jew!!

 

[Frogster]

What we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 is both Paul and non-Christian Gentiles in the Synagogues - Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath - for Gospel sermons. This is the picture of the weekly practice of the NT saints when they were more free to do as they wish.

No wonder James makes that appeal to Christians hearing scripture in the synagogues every Sabbath.

in Christ,

Bob

yes, NON Christians, but not Christians by 49. That is why I emphasized CHRISTIANS in my post. They were NOT NT saints.

Again, do you really think the Jews would want Jesus praising gentiles in their synagogues?

 

[Frogster]

Should also have pointed out Acts 15

15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
...13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
​

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:





Interesting. Well I am satisfied with the texts - as they read.


in Christ,

Bob

what do you think you proved about Acts 15? I have no idea what you are trying to prove.I posted a good commentary on 21, and why he who said he did certain things for the Gospel, did the vow. How can one who died to the law, be a messianic? Rom 7:4, gal 2:19-20.

Your verse have been disected several times, Paul was about the resurrection, as the text shows, but you are welcome to keep isolating verses, and making the parts you like in red, but the seasoned poster here, knows better.

 

[Frogster]

What we see in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 is both Paul and non-Christian Gentiles in the Synagogues - Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath - for Gospel sermons. This is the picture of the weekly practice of the NT saints when they were more free to do as they wish.

No wonder James makes that appeal to Christians hearing scripture in the synagogues every Sabbath.

in Christ,

Bob

what do unsaved gentiles in a synagogue, have to do with the church? Are unsaved people our example?

 

[BobRyan]

what do unsaved gentiles in a synagogue, have to do with the church? Are unsaved people our example?

Paul goes to the synagogues each Sabbath to share the Gospel with god-fearing Jews and gentiles .

If Mary was lost the entire time she lived before the cross -- then so also was John the baptizer - lost the entire time, also Samuel, David, Nathan, Job, after all they failed to "live after the cross" and so by some gospels that would be "lost".

OR you could go with the idea that the Jews after the cross he had yet to hear of Christ - were just as saved/lost as the Jews before the cross who had yet to hear of Jesus as the Christ.

in any case - Paul is clear as to what HIS practice was.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

what do you think you proved about Acts 15? I have no idea what you are trying to prove

James proves in Acts 15 that the debate is resolved by the fact that Christians are hearing the scriptures every Sabbath in the Synagogues - so there is no need to "add a NT burden" onto Gentile Christians - a burden that did not exist on gentile believers even in the OT - as if this is somehow necessary so they will not be disconnected from Bible teaching.

James points out that they are getting that teaching every Sabbath in the Synagogues so no need to invent then new burden for gentile Christians.

This fits in perfectly with James' instruction to Paul - insisting that he take a Nazarite vow - a ceremonial act that he already said would not apply to gentiles - who are not following the ceremonial system - yet are still instructed every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bugkiller]

you have brought that up repeatedly and I have pretty much ignored it since we all know that Messianic Jews had access to their local synagogues "every Sabbath" as James points out in Acts 15.

I did not want to end your point too quickly by pointing this out early.

So then the Christian Jews (i.e. Messianic Jews that even today are defined as those Jews that accept Christ as the long-promised full-consistent-with-the-Bible Messiah) - were not often treated well by Jews of the NT that were not Messianic --- did not accept Christ as the promised Messiah.

Missionaries/Evangelists treated badly by those who reject Christ as the Messiah - yep we see that.

in Christ,

Bob

Seems to me you're freely admitting the synagogue wasn't an assembly of Christians as you have always seemed to say. Why the change in tactics?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Paul goes to the synagogues each Sabbath to share the Gospel with god-fearing Jews and gentiles .

If Mary was lost the entire time she lived before the cross -- then so also was John the baptizer - lost the entire time, also Samuel, David, Nathan, Job, after all they failed to "live after the cross" and so by some gospels that would be "lost".

OR you could go with the idea that the Jews after the cross he had yet to hear of Christ - were just as saved/lost as the Jews before the cross who had yet to hear of Jesus as the Christ.

in any case - Paul is clear as to what HIS practice was.

in Christ,

Bob

I'll be nice and say your argument is based on misunderstanding. I could also say something else and be 100% correct at this time in your posting history.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

James proves in Acts 15 that the debate is resolved by the fact that Christians are hearing the scriptures every Sabbath in the Synagogues - so there is no need to "add a NT burden" onto Gentile Christians - a burden that did not exist on gentile believers even in the OT - as if this is somehow necessary so they will not be disconnected from Bible teaching.

James points out that they are getting that teaching every Sabbath in the Synagogues so no need to invent then new burden for gentile Christians.

This fits in perfectly with James' instruction to Paul - insisting that he take a Nazarite vow - a ceremonial act that he already said would not apply to gentiles - who are not following the ceremonial system - yet are still instructed every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

in Christ,

Bob

What you're attempting to do is prove gentiles are subject to the law with an example of a Jew doing a ceremonial act. It simply doesn't apply.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

Paul goes to the synagogues each Sabbath to share the Gospel with god-fearing Jews and gentiles .

If Mary was lost the entire time she lived before the cross -- then so also was John the baptizer - lost the entire time, also Samuel, David, Nathan, Job, after all they failed to "live after the cross" and so by some gospels that would be "lost".

OR you could go with the idea that the Jews after the cross he had yet to hear of Christ - were just as saved/lost as the Jews before the cross who had yet to hear of Jesus as the Christ.

in any case - Paul is clear as to what HIS practice was.

in Christ,

Bob

bro, you're drifting here. bottom line, they were unsaved gentiles in the synagogues, that is a fact.

 

[Frogster]

James proves in Acts 15 that the debate is resolved by the fact that Christians are hearing the scriptures every Sabbath in the Synagogues - so there is no need to "add a NT burden" onto Gentile Christians - a burden that did not exist on gentile believers even in the OT - as if this is somehow necessary so they will not be disconnected from Bible teaching.

James points out that they are getting that teaching every Sabbath in the Synagogues so no need to invent then new burden for gentile Christians.

This fits in perfectly with James' instruction to Paul - insisting that he take a Nazarite vow - a ceremonial act that he already said would not apply to gentiles - who are not following the ceremonial system - yet are still instructed every Sabbath in the Synagogues.

in Christ,

Bob

Show me how they were Christians in Acts 15! Why was paul and crew glad not to be in the Torah, and why did they go to churches, not synagogues after Acts 15? Why did Paul go to churches on the way to the council meeting in 15, and not synagogues to see the Christians?



Why would Paul want Christians around synagogue Jewish influence, after he went to Jerusalem, to ward off Jewish influence?

Again, how would the Jews tolerate Jesus praising gentiles in the synagogues?....no way!

The zealots were in the synagogues especially by 49 AD, they were the persecutors of Gal 6:12, you equation violates historical truth.


The synagogue leaders ordered Paul's back to be whipped 5 times 2 Cor 11, not exactly a place for gentile converts, is it? Hostilities were in flame big time in 49 AD.

you are wrong, my dear brother...

 

[Frogster]

What you're attempting to do is prove gentiles are subject to the law with an example of a Jew doing a ceremonial act. It simply doesn't apply.

bugkiller

eeexxxxxaaaactly!

 

[Frogster]

No wonder the Acts 24 discussion was a perfect fit for the quotes above --

nope, acts 24 paul was about the resurrection, i showed you that over and over.

23-26, resurrection, that was the context, and the hope of the 12 tribes as I proved.

 

[Frogster]

duplicate

 

[Frogster]

Paul goes to the synagogues each Sabbath to share the Gospel with god-fearing Jews and gentiles .

If Mary was lost the entire time she lived before the cross -- then so also was John the baptizer - lost the entire time, also Samuel, David, Nathan, Job, after all they failed to "live after the cross" and so by some gospels that would be "lost".

OR you could go with the idea that the Jews after the cross he had yet to hear of Christ - were just as saved/lost as the Jews before the cross who had yet to hear of Jesus as the Christ.

in any case - Paul is clear as to what HIS practice was.

in Christ,

Bob

why would Paul want his young disciples, near the Jews on their turf the synagogues, who for the most part hated Paul, whereby they would hate his converts too?



Acts 20:19
serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the plots of the Jews;

 

[bugkiller]

why would Paul want his young disciples, near the Jews on their turf the synagogues, who for the most part hated Paul, whereby they would hate his converts too?



Acts 20:19
serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the plots of the Jews;

Excellent question.

bugkiller