LDS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!

[Jane_Doe]

I've said no such thing, nor have I implied it. I distinctly said that there is a difference between making mistakes and sin. A mistake is hitting the wrong note in choir practice (heavenly or earthly). Sin, such as Adam and Eve did, was to disobey God--transgression and sin is the same thing, contrary to LDS believes. Mistake was hanging around the tree God said to not eat of, mistake was listening to the snake call God a liar and telling her she would not die---sin was trusting the snake and not God and taking the fruit and eating it. When she found herself next to the tree, she could have left--it was a mistake to be there. After listening to the snake, she could have walked away, it was a mistake to listen to him---but when she reached out and took the fruity---she sinned. The soul that sinneth, it shall die---the soul that makes a mistake---lives to make another.

Again, name one nonChrist person who has learned to follow God perfectly without ever faltering.

It does if you think they are too stupid to learn up there in the presence of God --making mistakes, but being sinless-- and require having to come to earth and sin in order to learn not to so they can get back to being sinless.

One's learning to follow God has nothing to do with IQ.

That's an example---Noah is up there as a spirit with God. He is following God. He is not sinning, or he wouldn't be there. He gets sent down here--does he have a choice in the matter--what if he sees everybody that comes down here sins and he doesn't want to come down here and sin, , can't he stay up there??

Noah makes a single righteous choice: to follow God's plan and be born. This is akin to graduating daycare. Now on to preschool.

doctrine is that souls go to heaven, and are angels until after the millennium at which time exaltation takes place?

LDS believes on "go up to Heaven" are different than yours. A righteous spirit goes to Spirit Paradise until the millennium/resurrection/Final Judgement. After then does a person receive there final place of joy.

I was under the impression, if you are an angel you stay one.

Just because you deliver one message doesn't mean you're forever going to be delivering them.

 

[mmksparbud]

Again, name one nonChrist person who has learned to follow God perfectly without ever faltering.

Enoch and Elijah
Again---for the hundredth time---I am not talking about what sinners down here do but about these preexisting beings-up there with God in a sinless world already. They can make their mistakes their. They can make and did make--the decision to follow God up there. Wi9thout ever coming down here to get a human form and sin.
"Again, name one nonChrist person who has learned to follow God perfectly without ever faltering"

Have no clue what you mean---There is no "nonChrist" person who is the least bit interested in following God.

One's learning to follow God has nothing to do with IQ.

Then they should be able to learn up there just fine without obtaining human form and sinning. They've chosen to follow god up there already. You are not being very explicit---what exactly are they learning down here that they could not learn up there with God? Please state some examples.

Noah makes a single righteous choice: to follow God's plan and be born. This is akin to graduating daycare. Now on to preschool.

OK---He chose to follow God---what is the next thing he has to learn down here that he could not have learned up there?

LDS believes on "go up to Heaven" are different than yours. A righteous spirit goes to Spirit Paradise until the millennium/resurrection/Final Judgement. After then does a person receive there final place of joy.

Yes--Paradise--
The Book of Alma the Son of Alma

2 Behold, I say unto you, that there is no resurrection—or, I would say, in other words, that this mortal does not put on immortality, this corruption does not put on incorruption—until after the coming of Christ.

Chapter 40
11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

In this state of rest, peace and joy, but they have not put on immortality yet. They are back to being spirit beings. Gabriel, was not in spirit form when he visited Daniel.

Dan_9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

What is this Paradise? It sounds as though it is a state of mind--peace--rest, --but Gabriel is appearing to men and--flying and touching them. And then again appeared to Mary---1000's of years apart and doesn't seem o be just in a state of happiness. He has form and function. Sort of hard to figure out just what this Paradise entails. For the exaltation doesn't happen until after the millennium, but Gabriel is described as standing in the presence of God. It sounds more like a high ranking angel--such as Lucifer had been --maybe even one of the covering cherubs. Don't quite understand the concept of this Paradise.

Just because you deliver one message doesn't mean you're forever going to be delivering them.

I wasn't referring to them delivering messages as such---just being an angel and staying one throughout eternity.

D&C Section 132
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

So I don't understand why Noah has become an angel.

 

[Rescued One]

An angel is an angel, not a resurrected human. An angel was created as an angel, not as a human.

In Mormonism, some resurrected humans are called angels; that is not biblical.

In Mormonism those who don't obey the laws and ordinances, become angels and never progress to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. They are angels forever. The Bible doesn't teach that humans become angels or that angels and gods began as humans. That would be reincarnation.

D&C 132
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing plural marriage are set forth.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my lawye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law...

28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Non-Mormons, according to Mormonism, have not received Christ and don't abide the laws and ordinances of the gospel.


3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

D&C 1
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness,
the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/1.6


"… The first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; and of course we are not going to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ without having faith in His Father. Then if we have faith in God the Father and the Son and are guided, as we ought to be, by the Holy Ghost, we will have faith in the servants of the Lord through whom He has spoken.

"We must have faith in the mission of Joseph Smith. Because the world had lapsed into spiritual darkness, changed the ordinances and broken the everlasting covenant, the Church of Jesus Christ had to be brought again from the heavens. Where there is no faith in these truths there is no faith in Jesus Christ who sent the Prophet Joseph Smith. This knowledge is vital to our eternal salvation."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:303

 

[Jane_Doe]

Enoch and Elijah

Where does it say they never sinned?

Again---for the hundredth time---I am not talking about what sinners down here do but about these preexisting beings-up there with God in a sinless world already.

Again, LDS theology: those are the SAME people. LDS don't believe in other species.

Have no clue what you mean---There is no "nonChrist" person who is the least bit interested in following God.

???? Are you saying even you have no interest in following God??? I know I do-- great interest/desire/striving/etc.

They've chosen to follow god up there already. You are not being very explicit---what exactly are they learning down here that they could not learn up there with God? Please state some examples.

What are they learning: to follow God.
An example: following God includes being truthful. This is a learned trait. A person does not just decide "well, I'm going to be 100% truthful from now on". They will eventually fail in that regard and hence sin against God. Hence the providing of a Savior.

What is this Paradise?

See the "Paradise" section: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

I wasn't referring to them delivering messages as such---just being an angel and staying one throughout eternity.

An angel = a messenger.
In Luke, the messenger Gabriel gave a message.

D&C Section 132
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

This is talking post-resurrection. Not applicable to the events in Luke.

So I don't understand why Noah has become an angel.

"Angels" are not a species (LDS don't believe in aliens). He was a person who gave a message. This does not involve being changed into a different species. It just involves delivering a message.

 

[Rescued One]

A "nonChrist person" would probably mean any person aside from Christ; it is an attempt to say something in English by a person whose first language is not English.

 

[Rescued One]

So I don't understand why Noah has become an angel.

This is a complexity of Mormonism. Angel means messenger, so Noah is a messenger. Why his identity is changed to Gabriel, I have no clue!

 

[mmksparbud]

Where does it say they never sinned?

The question you asked was:

Again, name one nonChrist person who has learned to follow God perfectly without ever faltering.

Faltering and sinning are 2 different things. Obviously they lived with God in such a close manner that they never had to see death.

???? Are you saying even you have no interest in following God??? I know I do-- great interest/desire/striving/etc.

I have no idea what a "nonChrist" person is. If you mean a non Christian---then why would they have any interest in following God at all??

So you do not believe that we are made lower than the angels or that Christ was made lower than the angels when He became human?? You consider beings with 2-6 wings to be human?

 

[mmksparbud]

An angel is an angel, not a resurrected human. An angel was created as an angel, not as a human.

In Mormonism, some resurrected humans are called angels; that is not biblical.

In Mormonism those who don't obey the laws and ordinances, become angels and never progress to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. They are angels forever. The Bible doesn't teach that humans become angels or that angels and gods began as humans. That would be reincarnation.

D&C 132
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing plural marriage are set forth.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my lawye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law...

28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Non-Mormons, according to Mormonism, have not received Christ and don't abide the laws and ordinances of the gospel.


3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

D&C 1
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness,
the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/1.6


"… The first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; and of course we are not going to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ without having faith in His Father. Then if we have faith in God the Father and the Son and are guided, as we ought to be, by the Holy Ghost, we will have faith in the servants of the Lord through whom He has spoken.

"We must have faith in the mission of Joseph Smith. Because the world had lapsed into spiritual darkness, changed the ordinances and broken the everlasting covenant, the Church of Jesus Christ had to be brought again from the heavens. Where there is no faith in these truths there is no faith in Jesus Christ who sent the Prophet Joseph Smith. This knowledge is vital to our eternal salvation."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:303

There is nothing anywhere in the bible that says we were, will be, angels. Noah becoming Gabriel is not even hinted at anywhere. That is yet one more thing that shows JS to be a false prophet. It is almost impossible to make sense out this all this stuff. Nothing adds up. You are so blessed to have gotten out of it---I wish my stepdaughter would.

 

[mmksparbud]

This is a complexity of Mormonism. Angel means messenger, so Noah is a messenger. Why his identity is changed to Gabriel, I have no clue!

They don't either! Strange----Enoch and Elijah kept their names---so did Moses.

 

[Rescued One]

So you do not believe that we are made lower than the angels or that Christ was made lower than the angels when He became human?? You consider beings with 2-6 wings to be human?

Mormon angels don't have wings. Look at Moroni statues.

 

[Rescued One]

They don't either! Strange----Enoch and Elijah kept their names---so did Moses.

They might believe that name was given to him. Those who take out their endowments are given a secret name in the temple and are told to not reveal that name to anyone.

 

[mmksparbud]

Mormon angels don't have wings. Look at Moroni statues.

Really??---So what do they make of the instructions that was given to Moses about the cherubim depicted on the ark of the covenant? The bible specifically names the cherubim and the seraphim---what do they say about those? And states that Lucifer was a covering cherub.

 

[mmksparbud]

They might believe that name was given to him. Those who take out their endowments are given a secret name in the temple and are told to not reveal that name to anyone.

Well, then Noah, blew it for he told his new name to everyone!!

 

[Jane_Doe]

The question you asked was:

Where does it say that Enoch and Elijah never sinned?

Faltering and sinning are 2 different things. Obviously they lived with God in such a close manner that they never had to see death.

They had a (needed) Savior...

I have no idea what a "nonChrist" person is.

I'm asking if you know of any person (besides Christ Himself) who has follow God perfectly- without any sin. Obviously Christ Himself was the perfect sinless Son of God.

So you do not believe that we are made lower than the angels or that Christ was made lower than the angels when He became human?? You consider beings with 2-6 wings to be human?

The wings are metaphorical, not literal. A messenger is someone who delivers a message, not a nonhuman species.

 

[Rescued One]

Well, then Noah, blew it for he told his new name to everyone!!

LOL.

 

[Rescued One]

Really??---So what do they make of the instructions that was given to Moses about the cherubim depicted on the ark of the covenant? The bible specifically names the cherubim and the seraphim---what do they say about those? And states that Lucifer was a covering cherub.

They never mentioned them to me. But I put my angel from the nativity set in the trash because it had wings.

 

[Jane_Doe]

There is nothing anywhere in the bible that says we were, will be, angels. Noah becoming Gabriel is not even hinted at anywhere. That is yet one more thing that shows JS to be a false prophet. It is almost impossible to make sense out this all this stuff. Nothing adds up. You are so blessed to have gotten out of it---I wish my stepdaughter would.

Mmksparbud, I am trying really hard to explain things to you simply. Remember, your beliefs seem just as anti-Biblical to me at points, including many beliefs that come up this conversation. Still, I am taking the time to try to understand you and your views, and not just throwing my hands up in the air saying "that's more evidence why SDA are following the devil and impossible to make sense of. I wish you would just leave them". (Obviously those are not my real thoughts).

Having that curtesy returned would be greatly appreciated. It makes it MUCH easier for me to feel love towards you and other Creedal Christians.

 

[mmksparbud]

Where does it say that Enoch and Elijah never sinned?

I didn't say they didn't. I said they lived so closely with God on this earth that He translated them without seeing death.

I'm asking if you know of any person (besides Christ Himself) who has follow God perfectly- without any sin. Obviously Christ Himself was the perfect sinless Son of God.

And I have been saying that when they are supposedly in this preexisting condition--they are not in sin or they could not be with God. To have to come down here, where it is obvious that everyone does sin, makes no sense.

The wings are metaphorical, not literal. A messenger is someone who delivers a message, not a nonhuman species.

Please state what verse stats that the cherubim and seraphim are metaphorical.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

There are a total of 57 verses that mention the cherubim, hardly sounds metaphorical. only about 2 for the seraphim.

Everything about the tabernacle was modeled after the real one in heaven.
Heb_8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Exo_25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
Exo_25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

I ask again---do you not believe the verses that state we are made lower than the angels and that Jesus was made lower than the angels when He became human??

 

[mmksparbud]

They never mentioned them to me. But I put my angel from the nativity set in the trash because it had wings.

Bummer. God saw fit to depict them with wings for the ark of the covenant. If God wants them to have wings---who is anybody to say they don't??

 

[Rescued One]

Methodists, SDAs, Baptists, Presbyterians, Greek Orthodox, and Roman Catholics, reject Mormonism and Joseph Smith so, according to Mormonism, aren't followers of Christ.

"We must have faith in the mission of Joseph Smith. Because the world had lapsed into spiritual darkness, changed the ordinances and broken the everlasting covenant, the Church of Jesus Christ had to be brought again from the heavens. Where there is no faith in these truths there is no faith in Jesus Christ who sent the Prophet Joseph Smith. This knowledge is vital to our eternal salvation."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:303