LDS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!

[Jane_Doe]

Well--let me see. I am up there with almighty God and He asks me to do something---like what??---take out the trash??---no problem. What else? Pick some apples for some of the angels, tough job--maybe I'd rather go play with the lions--OK---I say no, not right now---Now what? Is God going to strike me down with a bold of lightening? Or is He going to be saddened ---and that would hurt me to the quick and I would go running and pick the stupid apples. What could God possibly ask of me that I would not want to do? What command is He going to ask me up there that would require me to come down here to learn to obey??? I simply do not get it.

Why don't you perfectly follow God every single moment right now? Why do you sin?

I know for me, I am a sinner. I sin. And it's not infrequently. I do so because *I* fall short. I choose to be lazy. I choose to indulge in things which go against God. I am learning to follow Him. He (being wonderful), does continue to love me, forgive me, wash me clean, tutor me, and fill me with His power so I can better follow Him. But still, I do so imperfectly. I could not learn this in His presence- no unclean thing can be in His presence.

 

[Rescued One]

Satan isn't in heaven to tempt people. Heaven is without sin. If we live on earth, we are tempted.

 

[mmksparbud]

Why don't you perfectly follow God every single moment right now? Why do you sin?

I know for me, I am a sinner. I sin. And it's not infrequently. I do so because *I* fall short. I choose to be lazy. I choose to indulge in things which go against God. I am learning to follow Him. He (being wonderful), does continue to love me, forgive me, wash me clean, tutor me, and fill me with His power so I can better follow Him. But still, I do so imperfectly. I could not learn this in His presence- no unclean thing can be in His presence.

Again you are comparing pre-existing beings, up there in the presence of God--they are sinless or they could not be there---to sinners on earth. That's not just apples and oranges (both fruits) but apples and
rocks. Why do sinless beings have to learn how to sin??? You simply do not answer the question and keep comparing them to earthly sinners---two different categories.

Again---Lucifer did not need to come to earth to learn anything for there was as yet no earth. Him nor his followers obeyed God--but the other 2/3 did. Those also did not need to come here to learn to obey God.

 

[mmksparbud]

I also asked about Noah---what did he do that keeps him an angel---Gabriel?

D&C 132
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

But the exalted are gods:

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

D&C 76

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

Luk_1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

Why is Noah, now called Gabriel, an angel, who is subject under the exalted gods, not one of the exalted gods??? And if not a god, why is he in the presence of God so closely that he is the one chosen to deliver to Mary the news of the upcoming Savior?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Again you are comparing pre-existing beings, up there in the presence of God--they are sinless or they could not be there---to sinners on earth.

I'm talking about people learning how to follow God. Now, do you know a single (nonChrist) person who has learned to follow God without faltering there?

Why do sinless beings have to learn how to sin???

It's not about learning to sin, I have said that many times. It's about learning to follow God.

You simply do not answer the question and keep comparing them to earthly sinners---two different categories.

No they are not. People are people.

Again---Lucifer did not need to come to earth to learn anything for there was as yet no earth. Him nor his followers obeyed God--but the other 2/3 did. Those also did not need to come here to learn to obey God.

Lucifer flunked daycare. The rest of the 2/3 didn't flunk daycare, but that doesn't mean they automatically get a college diploma. No, we're all still learning to follow God.

Now, do you know a single (nonChrist) person who has learned to follow God without faltering there?

 

[Jane_Doe]

I also asked about Noah---what did he do that keeps him an angel---Gabriel?

D&C 132
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

But the exalted are gods:

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

D&C 76

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

Luk_1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

Why is Noah, now called Gabriel, an angel, who is subject under the exalted gods, not one of the exalted gods??? And if not a god, why is he in the presence of God so closely that he is the one chosen to deliver to Mary the news of the upcoming Savior?

You're mixing up three different timeliness. If you'd like I can untangle things for you answer my bolded question.

 

[mmksparbud]

I'm talking about people learning how to follow God. Now, do you know a single (nonChrist) person who has learned to follow God without faltering there?

It's not about learning to sin, I have said that many times. It's about learning to follow God.

No they are not. People are people.

Lucifer flunked daycare. The rest of the 2/3 didn't flunk daycare, but that doesn't mean they automatically get a college diploma. No, we're all still learning to follow God.

Now, do you know a single (nonChrist) person who has learned to follow God without faltering there?

You may be talking about people, but I am obviously and constantly asking sbout these pre-existing beings---they are not human, supposedly, they are waiting for human bodies---they become us. Why do they have to come down here---I don't care about people--I know we learn through trials--because we are born with sin natures. I have asked over and over about these preexisting beings --why do they have to come down here to learn to be in a human body--they are up there living in the presence of God, sinless, why must they come down here to learn all about the joys of being a sinful human???? I don't know how to make my question any clearer and have asked many times and you keep coming back with humans learn through trials---who cares about humans---I keep asking why these pre-existing beings have to come down here at all!!!

 

[mmksparbud]

No they are not. People are people.

They aren't called human--they are called intelligences---if you consider them human--they are still up there in the presence of God and sinless---why must they come down here to follow God --the 2/3 of the angels that did not follow Lucifer did not need to come down here to learn to follow God. Obviously they learned to follow without coming down here, so why does any other intelligence have to come down here????

 

[Jane_Doe]

You may be talking about people, but I am obviously and constantly asking sbout these pre-existing beings---they are not human, supposedly, they are waiting for human bodies---they become us.

They were *our* spirits, awaiting to have bodies. Same spirits. Same learning process.

Why do they have to come down here---I don't care about people--I know we learn through trials--because we are born with sin natures. .

No, we learn through having both successes and failures because that's how learning happens. It's not "I sin because my sinful body made me do it".

I have asked over and over about these preexisting beings --why do they have to come down here to learn to be in a human body--they are up there living in the presence of God, sinless, why must they come down here to learn all about the joys of being a sinful human????

Being born into a body makes NO one a sinner. I make me a sinner when I fail to follow God. God does not force me to sin- I bring that upon myself. Same with every other nonChrist person.

I don't know how to make my question any clearer and have asked many times and you keep coming back with humans learn through trials---who cares about humans---I keep asking why these pre-existing beings have to come down here at all!!!

They are the SAME thing. One without a body and one with. One with less learning, one with more.

 

[Jane_Doe]

They aren't called human--they are called intelligences---if you consider them human--they are still up there in the presence of God and sinless---why must they come down here to follow God --the 2/3 of the angels that did not follow Lucifer did not need to come down here to learn to follow God. Obviously they learned to follow without coming down here, so why does any other intelligence have to come down here????

(Explaining LDS beliefs here)

We're talking about spirits here. You have a spirit inside your body right now, it is a key part of you. When you die, your spirit will leave your body, and then return upon your resurrection.

It is the same with every person: before birth their spirit existed and choose to follow God in that first step (as one of the 2/3). Each was then born into a body and once again gets to choose/learn to follow God more. Eventually, we each make mistakes, and (hopefully) choose to be washed clean and return to follow Him. We learn more. And then we make another mistake, another washing, and recommit again. This is learning to follow God.

 

[mmksparbud]

They were *our* spirits, awaiting to have bodies. Same spirits. Same learning process.

No, we learn through having both successes and failures because that's how learning happens. It's not "I sin because my sinful body made me do it".

Being born into a body makes NO one a sinner. I make me a sinner when I fail to follow God. God does not force me to sin- I bring that upon myself. Same with every other nonChrist person.

They are the SAME thing. One without a body and one with. One with less learning, one with more.

Adam and Eve did not inherit a sinful nature--we however, do. These spirits are still up there existing in a sinless world, in the presence of God which is what we all want. Instead they have to come down here to learn to follow God which obviously they can learn up there for those 2/3 of the angels choose to do so. How do you learn to follow God?---It is not a learning process, it is yes or no---how much of a higher education is needed to say yes or no? It isn't a university degree that is required it is a free will to choose yes or no. And they obviously had that with God or Lucifer and his flowerers would not have chosen against God. A body is not required---free will is.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Adam and Eve did not inherit a sinful nature--we however, do.

A&E didn't make me a sinner. God didn't make me a sinner. I made me a sinner with I sin. Likewise Adam made himself a sinner when he sinned.

These spirits are still up there existing in a sinless world, in the presence of God which is what we all want.

For LDS, the masterpiece of God's wonder is not us all just hanging out with Him, but to share/reflect/personify in His goodness, His love, His Grace, etc. This was not the preexistent state.

How do you learn to follow God?---It is not a learning process, it is yes or no

You just said "learning to follow God doesn't involve learning"... that make zero sense.

---how much of a higher education is needed to say yes or no? It isn't a university degree that is required it is a free will to choose yes or no. And they obviously had that with God or Lucifer and his flowerers would not have chosen against God. A body is not required---free will is.

And learning how to use that free will is a learning process.

 

[mmksparbud]

A&E didn't make me a sinner. God didn't make me a sinner. I made me a sinner with I sin. Likewise Adam made himself a sinner when he sinned.

For LDS, the masterpiece of God's wonder is not us all just hanging out with Him, but to share/reflect/personify in His goodness, His love, His Grace, etc. This was not the preexistent state.

You just said "learning to follow God doesn't involve learning"... that make zero sense.

And learning how to use that free will is a learning process.

Adam and Eve passed down a fallen, sinful nature. That is what we inherit. The propensity to sin, which was not there before. A child will eventually sin--period.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom_5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

We are considered innocent until the time that we can comprehend right from wrong. A child sins, but it is not held against him for he can not comprehend it.

I didn't say "learning to follow God doesn't involve learning". I said "How do you learn to follow God?---It is not a learning process, it is yes or no" --I said it is not a learning PROCESS. You have to learn to use free will?---It is yes or no. You can teach a dog that in 5 min.

It is not learning to obey God---it is surrendering to Jesus and to His love that makes us obedient. You can learn to do everything that is required ---if it is not done out of love for God--it gets you nothing. It is taking Jesus obedience as ours--it is He that teaches us. And if these intelligences were real--they would have learned that up there with Him without the need of coming down here just as those 2/3 did. If you think God is up there with those 2/3 having a less than perfect understanding of what obedience to Him is---then you truly do not comprehend the power of God. He doesn't do dysfunctional. That is the original Hebrew rendering of the word "good" that God pronounces over His creations---functional. Anything in the presence of God is fully functional to what they were created for.
And that would include any so called spirit children---of which there are none. We obtain the life force upon our conception, That is the gift that God gave to not only Adam and Eve, but to every living creature.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I didn't say "learning to follow God doesn't involve learning". I said "How do you learn to follow God?---It is not a learning process, it is yes or no" --I said it is not a learning PROCESS. You have to learn to use free will?---It is yes or no. You can teach a dog that in 5 min.

Learning to follow God is not a 1 time 5 minute thing. It's about continually choosing to follow God, continually choosing to surrender to Him, continuing to show His love, etc. A continual walk with God, not just 5 minutes.

And if these intelligences were real--they would have learned that up there with Him without the need of coming down here just as those 2/3 did. If you think God is up there with those 2/3 having a less than perfect understanding of what obedience to Him is---then you truly do not comprehend the power of God. He doesn't do dysfunctional. That is the original Hebrew rendering of the word "good" ths God pronounces over His creations---functional. Anything in the presence of God is fully functional to what they were crested for.
And that would include any so called spirit children---of which there are none. We obtain the life force upon our conception, That is the gift that God gave to not only Adam and Eve, but to every living creature.

I understand that those are your beliefs. I respect your right to believe what you believe (whatever that might be) and I am not trying to change any of that. I am just explaining my beliefs.

 

[mmksparbud]

Well that is what we do here---explain our believes. I am just trying to make sense of yours---and quite frankly, I can't. But they make sense to you. We each have to come to God with those believes and He is the one that makes the judgement.

BTW---what about Noah/Gabriel??

 

[Jane_Doe]

Well that is what we do here---explain our believes. I am just trying to make sense of yours---and quite frankly, I can't.

I tried. I think the big difference here is LDS believe following God is a continual process for all of life. I know some Christians believe it's just a 5 minute thing (such as say the sinners prayer and you're done). I don't know SDA views on that subject.

BTW---what about Noah/Gabriel??

What about him?

 

[mmksparbud]

I tried. I think the big difference here is LDS believe following God is a continual process for all of life. I know some Christians believe it's just a 5 minute thing (such as say the sinners prayer and you're done). I don't know SDA views on that subject.

What about him?

For us here on earth it is a continual learning process. With those that are in the presence of God, they are without sin--for sin can not live in the presence of God. And they are not stupid beings, they can learn in His presence just fine. And after the resurrection, we will be learning. There will be much to learn, the reality of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and what the exact meaning of difficult to comprehend verses are--not to mention just learning the surroundings which will be very different from what we have now.

Fromm post #38

D&C 132
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

But the exalted are gods:

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

D&C 76

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—

59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall overcome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

Luk_1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

Why is Noah, now called Gabriel, an angel, who is subject under the exalted gods, not one of the exalted gods??? And if not a god, why is he in the presence of God so closely that he is the one chosen to deliver to Mary the news of the upcoming Savior?

 

[Rescued One]

To witness face to face with your personal spirit that Jesus is the Christ.

That sounds like a fairytale to me. There are how many humans on earth?

 

[Jane_Doe]

For us here on earth it is a continual learning process. With those that are in the presence of God, they are without sin--for sin can not live in the presence of God.

(Bolding mine)
That's a disconnect between you and I. For me, learning = learning. People = people. It's universal.
I've gathered you believe that other people learn differently without ever ever making mistakes (aka are instantly perfect).

And they are not stupid beings, they can learn in His presence just fine.

Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with this.

Fromm post #38

Oh yes, I was awaiting for you to tell me one nonChrist person you know that learns without ever making mistakes before I addressed this. You have not done so, but I will answer anyways. It's pretty simple:

Noah's timeline (from the LDS perceptive)
Pre creation of the Earth: Noah is a spirit with God. Noah chooses to follow God and His plan.
OT events: Noah's born into a mortal body, does the arc and other things, mortal body dies. Spirit lives the entire time.
NT events: God has Noah deliver a message.
Post millennial events (which have not yet occurred): Noah (being a righteous follow of Christ) is exalted.

 

[mmksparbud]

That's a disconnect between you and I. For me, learning = learning. People = people. It's universal.
I've gathered you believe that other people learn differently without ever ever making mistakes (aka are instantly perfect).

I've said no such thing, nor have I implied it. I distinctly said that there is a difference between making mistakes and sin. A mistake is hitting the wrong note in choir practice (heavenly or earthly). Sin, such as Adam and Eve did, was to disobey God--transgression and sin is the same thing, contrary to LDS believes. Mistake was hanging around the tree God said to not eat of, mistake was listening to the snake call God a liar and telling her she would not die---sin was trusting the snake and not God and taking the fruit and eating it. When she found herself next to the tree, she could have left--it was a mistake to be there. After listening to the snake, she could have walked away, it was a mistake to listen to him---but when she reached out and took the fruity---she sinned. The soul that sinneth, it shall die---the soul that makes a mistake---lives to make another.

Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with this.

It does if you think they are too stupid to learn up there in the presence of God --making mistakes, but being sinless-- and require having to come to earth and sin in order to learn not to so they can get back to being sinless.

Noah's timeline (from the LDS perceptive)
Pre creation of the Earth: Noah is a spirit with God. Noah chooses to follow God and His plan.
OT events: Noah's born into a mortal body, does the arc and other things, mortal body dies. Spirit lives the entire time.
NT events: God has Noah deliver a message.
Post millennial events (which have not yet occurred): Noah (being a righteous follow of Christ) is exalted.

That's an example---Noah is up there as a spirit with God. He is following God. He is not sinning, or he wouldn't be there. He gets sent down here--does he have a choice in the matter--what if he sees everybody that comes down here sins and he doesn't want to come down here and sin, , can't he stay up there??
After he gets here--yes he is considered righteous, but he sins for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but he is saved from the destruction of the earth and if he had not sinned, he would have been translated as Enoch. After the flood, he gets drunk. Not a good start, but much later he dies---his spirit goes up to heaven where he is now an angel and has a name change to Gabriel---(how come his name is changed and Enoch's isn't?)----Your doctrine is that souls go to heaven, and are angels until after the millennium at which time exaltation takes place? I was under the impression, if you are an angel you stay one.