LDS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!

[mmksparbud]

Except it's not! How many times do I have to tell you that?

It carries zero doctrinal authority. In fact, you'd find many LDS (myself included) that would flat out say "JS is sinning here, specifically the sin of pride". LDS don't believe that everything JS did was perfect- in fact that are many instances he got things blatantly wrong. He was not perfect Jesus Christ.

That's ACTUAL Mormon beliefs.

No he wasn't---He also wasn't a prophet of God.

 

[Jane_Doe]

No he wasn't---He also wasn't a prophet of God.

You are free to believe that.
I am just trying to explain LDS beliefs.

 

[mmksparbud]

I'm sorry you had to go through that. My sympathies.

Thank you, but I was expecting it. When I first came on I noticed many people just write Christian instead of what denomination they belong to. I thought long and hard about doing the same, then decided--nope--let's see what they've got. It seems somewhat disingenuous to do that. So---It does make me more inclined to see the other side of things first, those that attacked me, I knew that is how they felt and they were just being honest. I found I really was not offended at all. So I just presented my explanations.
See---one thing that I see is this--and I've said many times before--will the doctrines and believes of any church still stand biblically if their leader--prophet--were proven to be false? Those denominations that stand on scripture, will still stand. Remove the pope, you will still have most of the Catholic teachings---Protestants do consider them wrong, but they are based on their interpretation of the bible. Many things they could not hold on to without the pope. With us--dump EGW--our doctrines would not change--only thing might change would be the dietary restrictions, but even those not really, they've been held up by tons of research as a healthier lifestyle. Not only that leads to proven longer life, but also life that is less filled with sickness. Remove her and you still end up, just according to medical research, with about the same way of eating and drinking. But with Mormonism--remove JS--and it does not stand on biblical concepts, remove all his writings, you fall. It is based on the bible not being accurate and the writings of JS being more accurate than the bible. All those theories can not stand--pre-existence, God being human before being God, heavenly mother, spirit children, Adam and Eve not being able to have children until the fall, the whole ceremony surrounding that, the secret ceremonies, the priesthood, there ever having been a need to reinstitute plural wives, exaltation, murder being unforgiveable, water instead of grape juice or wine, none of the Nephi believes, that Jesus came to the Americas, that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, and more--none of it can stand without JS. If you have taken to heart, that the bible is not accurate, you have nothing, no JS and no bible. You would have no concrete basses for any of your believes. Even if there were 1000's more denominations, Christianity stands---Mormonism, can not. For there is only One God, and there never will be any more than that, anywhere in the universe, and there is only one word of God as the basses for those believes. Any light that comes from God, has to be in agreement to the already stated word of God.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Thank you, but I was expecting it. When I first came on I noticed many people just write Christian instead of what denomination they belong to. I thought long and hard about doing the same, then decided--nope--let's see what they've got. It seems somewhat disingenuous to do that. So---It does make me more inclined to see the other side of things first, those that attacked me, I knew that is how they felt and they were just being honest.

Honesty is no excuse for attacking another person. It is perfectly possible to be honest and kind.

Remove the pope, you will still have most of the Catholic teachings---Protestants do consider them wrong, but they are based on their interpretation of the bible.

The pope / papecy / historical priesthood persons are pretty dang important to the Catholic interpretation of the Bible-- in fact, I've heard many Catholics argue "the Church gave us the Bible".
On the same note though, Calvinist teachings wouldn't remotely be the same without Calvin. Heck- all of Protestantism wouldn't exist without Luther.

It is based on the bible not being accurate .

Again, that statement is completely false.

 

[mmksparbud]

Honesty is no excuse for attacking another person. It is perfectly possible to be honest and kind.

The pope / papecy / historical priesthood persons are pretty dang important to the Catholic interpretation of the Bible-- in fact, I've heard many Catholics argue "the Church gave us the Bible".
On the same note though, Calvinist teachings wouldn't remotely be the same without Calvin. Heck- all of Protestantism wouldn't exist without Luther.

Again, that statement is completely false.

The way I have been spoken too about my faith I know is sometimes the only way that something can be said. It may seem impolite, but I do not take it as such, I take it as misinformed.
Protestantism stands on the bible alone--with or without Luther--that is why we're different from the Catholics.
No, that statement is completely true.

"18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?"

Joseph Smith

"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book."

In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it," Character and Being of God, Etc., by Joseph Smith (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, pp. 1-11)

In the spring of 1820 Joseph had learned from his First Vision that the churches of his day were teaching false creeds and doctrines (see Joseph Smith History 1:18–19). Several years later, while Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon, he came to understand clearly why the doctrines of the churches were corrupt. From a vision given to the prophet Nephi, Joseph learned that when the ancient biblical prophets and apostles had written their books, they came forth “in purity” (1 Nephi 13:25). Sadly, as their writings went forth, parts of the gospel that were “plain and most precious” and “covenants of the Lord” were “taken away” (1 Nephi 13:26). Nephi saw that these changes and omissions would cause “an exceedingly great many [to] stumble” (1 Nephi 13:29). Satan would gain “great power” through all of this (see 1 Nephi 13:34).
Plain and Precious Truths Restored - ensign

You believe in a God that gave us His word--but is too weak to maintain it.
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

[Jane_Doe]

The way I have been spoken too about my faith I know is sometimes the only way that something can be said. It may seem impolite, but I do not take it as such, I take it as misinformed.

Once a person is presented with accurate information, they are no longer misinformed. I rejoice in people who learn from the new information and take it into account. Not so much with people who ignore that information and keep saying the same thing.
(This isn't LDS specific-- I likewise rejoice when people learn more about SDA or Baptist or Islam, etc).

Protestantism stands on the bible alone--with or without Luther--that is why we're different from the Catholics.

I disagree with you there, but that's a different topic.

No, that statement is completely true.

No.

"18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?"

; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?"

"...that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight..."
No mention of the being corrupt Bible, rather specifically calls out the creeds.

"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book."

In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it," Character and Being of God, Etc., by Joseph Smith (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, pp. 1-11)

In the spring of 1820 Joseph had learned from his First Vision that the churches of his day were teaching false creeds and doctrines (see Joseph Smith History 1:18–19). Several years later, while Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon, he came to understand clearly why the doctrines of the churches were corrupt. From a vision given to the prophet Nephi, Joseph learned that when the ancient biblical prophets and apostles had written their books, they came forth “in purity” (1 Nephi 13:25). Sadly, as their writings went forth, parts of the gospel that were “plain and most precious” and “covenants of the Lord” were “taken away” (1 Nephi 13:26). Nephi saw that these changes and omissions would cause “an exceedingly great many [to] stumble” (1 Nephi 13:29). Satan would gain “great power” through all of this (see 1 Nephi 13:34).
Plain and Precious Truths Restored - ensign

You believe in a God that gave us His word--but is too weak to maintain it.
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Again, no mention of the Bible being corrupt.

 

[mmksparbud]

Once a person is presented with accurate information, they are no longer misinformed. I rejoice in people who learn from the new information and take it into account. Not so much with people who ignore that information and keep saying the same thing.
(This isn't LDS specific-- I likewise rejoice when people learn more about SDA or Baptist or Islam, etc).

OK---Let's say that I just refuse to get upset about what others think of my believes. Everyone has the right to their own view. We each are responsible only for sowing the seed. It is God that makes things grow ad others who may reap. See---they may be thinking the same thing you are---"I've shown her, but she keeps repeating the same thing"--And some who will think the same of you, you've been shown but keep repeating the same thing. Oh, well---repetition is one of the bases of learning. We all just keep repeating---and let God handle the rest.

"...that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight..."
No mention of the being corrupt Bible, rather specifically calls out the creeds.

Yes, well,

he came to understand clearly why the doctrines of the churches were corrupt.

doctrines are derived from the bible. Aren't yours??

 

[Jane_Doe]

OK---Let's say that I just refuse to get upset about what others think of my believes. Everyone has the right to their own view. We each are responsible only for sowing the seed. It is God that makes things grow ad others who may reap. See---they may be thinking the same thing you are---"I've shown her, but she keeps repeating the same thing"--And some who will think the same of you, you've been shown but keep repeating the same thing. Oh, well---repetition is one of the bases of learning. We all just keep repeating---and let God handle the rest.

If someone says "SDA believe that Christians are three headed Martians"*, I think they are misinformed. So I help them out by letting them know that's not true. If they say "Ok, that's good to know", that's a good thing and I rejoice. If that person *keeps* going on about how "SDA believe that Christians are three headed Martians" after many corrections.... in my eyes that's them attacking SDA and choosing to ignore the facts. That's not good Christian behavior on their part.

* This is just a random silly totally-not-real example.

doctrines are derived from the bible. Aren't yours??

Your doctrines != the Bible.
Again, LDS do not believe the Bible is corrupt.

 

[mmksparbud]

If someone says "SDA believe that Christians are three headed Martians"*, I think they are misinformed. So I help them out by letting them know that's not true. If they say "Ok, that's good to know", that's a good thing and I rejoice. If that person *keeps* going on about how "SDA believe that Christians are three headed Martians" after many corrections.... in my eyes that's them attacking SDA and choosing to ignore the facts. That's not good Christian behavior on their part.

* This is just a random silly totally-not-real example.

Your doctrines != the Bible.
Again, LDS do not believe the Bible is corrupt.

I've had that happen--not 3 headed Martians-- but one silly guy who kept talking about we believe in creatures from out space because I said technically, angels are aliens from outer space. And in Job where the sons of God gathered and Satan came also. I said it was basically a gathering of leaders of different worlds and Satan went as the prince of this world. That guy went on and on about how SDA's believe in aliens and he was getting really crass and rude and I finally asked for someone to speak to him to tone his belittling down---I mean he was really weird. Far beyond disagreeing but truly warped. He can believe what he wants about us, even if it is not true if he insists. But he didn't have to be that rude.

Your doctrines do not come from the bible?? Lutherans do, Baptists do, all Christian doctrine come from the bible. If the doctrines are corrupt---they are saying the bible is corrupt. Which is what is meant when they say there are many "pure and precious truths" that have been removed from the bible, and word intentionally mistranslated to intentionally mislead the reader.

The First Book of Nephi

Chapter 13
26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.
28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.
29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

Of course, that was before JS knew that the Dead Sea Scrolls would prove that the OT --which is the same that Jesus had--had nothing missing. Virtually word for word in tact--our God is able.

Heb_7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Jud_1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

 

[Jane_Doe]

He can believe what he wants about us, even if it is not true if he insists. But he didn't have to be that rude.

Amen to that.

Your doctrines do not come from the bible??

I did not say that. I said:

Your doctrines != the Bible.

 

[mmksparbud]

Coming from the bible doesn't mean it equals the bible, but, doctrines nit coming from the bible, certainly can't even come close to being equal to the bible. It's--the bible says this, our doctrine will state the same thing. It is not, a man says this, therefore our doctrine will say the same thing. So I ask again, are your doctrines based on the bible.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Coming from the bible doesn't mean it equals the bible

Thank you for acknowledging that. Reiterating my point now: LDS do *not* believe the Bible to be corrupt.

So I ask again, are your doctrines based on the bible.

I will address this subject after we finish the one at hand.

 

[mmksparbud]

Thank you for acknowledging that. Reiterating my point now: LDS do *not* believe the Bible to be corrupt.

I will address this subject after we finish the one at hand.

The First Book of Nephi

Chapter 13
26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.
28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.
29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

What, in your opinion, does this mean?

 

[Jane_Doe]

The First Book of Nephi

Chapter 13
26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.
28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.
29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

What, in your opinion, does this mean?

(Just explaining LDS viewpoint here)
It is not the Bible text that is corrupted. Rather, the Creed-filtered understanding of it is flawed.
(Obviously I respect other people right to believe otherwise and aren't trying to change anyone's minds)

 

[mmksparbud]

It is not the Bible text that is corrupted. Rather, the Creed-filtered understanding of it is flawed.

It does not say that. It says there are parts missing that were deliberately removed

"they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.
28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God. "

In other words---the bible is not accurate, things have been removed--it is what is then called--corrupted.

cor·rupt
ADJECTIVE

1. having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain:
   "unscrupulous logging companies assisted by corrupt officials"
   synonyms: dishonest · unscrupulous · dishonorable · unprincipled · unethical ·
   [more]
2. (of a text or a computer database or program) made unreliable by errors or alterations.

VERB

1. cause to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain:
   "there is a continuing fear of firms corrupting politicians in the search for contracts"
2. change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations:
   "Epicurus's teachings have since been much corrupted"

 

[Jane_Doe]

It does not say that. It says there are parts missing that were deliberately removed

(Again, just explaining LDS perspective, respect other people different beliefs).
Not the text itself being flawed, but Creedal understanding. Creedal theology distorts understanding of scripture, removing some of the simple message otherwise there.

In other words---the bible is not accurate, things have been removed--it is what is then called--corrupted.

No. Again, much disagreement with the Creeds, but not the text of the Bible itself.

 

[mmksparbud]

(Again, just explaining LDS perspective, respect other people different beliefs).
Not the text itself being flawed, but Creedal understanding. Creedal theology distorts understanding of scripture, removing some of the simple message otherwise there.

No. Again, much disagreement with the Creeds, but not the text of the Bible itself.

It does not say that!!! It clearly states that things have been removed from the bible. How much clearer do you need it??? It does not say creedal understanding one single time!!

"they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.
28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God. "

 

[Jane_Doe]

It does not say that!!! It clearly states that things have been removed from the bible. How much clearer do you need it??? It does not say creedal understanding one single time!!

"they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away. And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.
28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God. "

(Again, just explaining LDS perspective, respect other people's different beliefs).

Creedal DOCTRINES have simple truths taken from them. CREEDS take simple truths from understanding. Not corrupting the text of the Bible itself, but understanding of it.

 

[Christie insb]

This is anti-biblical and therefore not true:

"Celestial marriage is the crowning ordinance of the gospel of Jesus Christ."
Chapter 15: Eternal Marriage


The Bible Warns us:
Galatians 1
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I have heard about this and all the "family is forever" stuff, but Jesus said that in heaven there will be neither marriage nor giving in marriage. So I agree that celestial marriage is un scriptural. Frankly I don't even know where this could have come from, since there is no place mentioned in the Bible that supports this.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I have heard about this and all the "family is forever" stuff, but Jesus said that in heaven there will be neither marriage nor giving in marriage. So I agree that celestial marriage is un scriptural. Frankly I don't even know where this could have come from, since there is no place mentioned in the Bible that supports this.

If you're interested in LDS understanding of this how how we don't see any conflict in with the Bible, I recommend this good explanation: Mormon Answers: Love, Dating, and Marriage for Mormons (Latter-day Saints)