LDS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!

[Jane_Doe]

2/3 of the angels learned to follow quite well without falling.

Who those angels are and what amount of free will they have varies dramatically across different Christian theologies, so this is a nonstarter.

Who says that we have to learn to kill so we can learn to follow God. It's one thing to decide you're not going to wash the dishes when you're told to---quite another to murder your mother for telling you to do so.

You're getting this backwards: it's about learning to LOVE your mother. Learning means you have a choice in the matter (else it won't be learning). Learning also inventively involves mistakes.

In that stagnant, bubble wrapped world up there that these beings were in---what horrible thing could God ask them to do that would make them not want to do what God said to do? Would God have asked them to do something that violated their conscience?

Again, this is about choice.

God did not provide a way for humanity to fall---He provided a way back from that fall.

Actually He provided both. HE placed the tree. He gave them the choice. And He gave them the way back. This is LOVE. He did not *make* them fall, rather gave them the choice.

You may think you stand in the light of God. But when you malign the very character of God---how can you stand in His light? JS bought into the original lie.

I am talking about a loving all knowing God! The God of the Bible! Not some abusive "lock children up" being or an absent minded parent that "oh my, I let something in their on accident and now people are in trouble, guess I'll have to come up with a backup plan since that whole garden idea didn't work out".

JS bought into the original lie.

The lie was verse 4. And no, there's no buying it.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Who those angels are and what amount of free will they have varies dramatically across different Christian theologies, so this is a nonstarter.

You're getting this backwards: it's about learning to LOVE your mother. Learning means you have a choice in the matter (else it won't be learning). Learning also inventively involves mistakes.

Again, this is about choice.

Actually He provided both. HE placed the tree. He gave them the choice. And He gave them the way back. This is LOVE. He did not *make* them fall, rather gave them the choice.

I am talking about a loving all knowing God! The God of the Bible! Not some abusive "lock children up" being or an absent minded parent that "oh my, I let something in their on accident and now people are in trouble, guess I'll have to come up with a backup plan since that whole garden idea didn't work out".

The lie was verse 4. And no, there's no buying it.

I'm really not trying to change anyone's views here. I would like to just peacefully explain mine, without insulting anyone else's beliefs or having anyone else insult mine. I realize that's not always achieved (and I do fall short there at points), but it is what I would like.

 

[mmksparbud]

Who those angels are and what amount of free will they have varies dramatically across different Christian theologies, so this is a nonstarter.

You're getting this backwards: it's about learning to LOVE your mother. Learning means you have a choice in the matter (else it won't be learning). Learning also inventively involves mistakes.

Again, this is about choice.

Actually He provided both. HE placed the tree. He gave them the choice. And He gave them the way back. This is LOVE. He did not *make* them fall, rather gave them the choice.

I am talking about a loving all knowing God! The God of the Bible! Not some abusive "lock children up" being or an absent minded parent that "oh my, I let something in their on accident and now people are in trouble, guess I'll have to come up with a backup plan since that whole garden idea didn't work out".

The lie was verse 4. And no, there's no buying it.

I've not heard very many dramatically different stories from Christians as to whom those angels are---the only dramatically different version I have heard is from the LDS. And where does it state that angels had no choice? Obviously Lucifer took a different route and so did those that believed him instead of God.

There is one thing you are right about. God provided free will. And Adam and Eve had a choice to make. They chose wrong. But nothing in the bible says they existed before being created by God. It states that God breathed life into them and then they existed. They were not brought down here in order for them to sin and get to know what life is all about. That is what Satan said to them. That God knew they would know good and evil---and be like Him. and that He lied--they would not die, that was the first lie. You still have not told me what it is that God wanted these sin free, beings, who were in His presence to learn down here that they could not learn up there with Him. You seriously are saying they could not learn to love God up there with Him? And why is it that you keep saying that being in His presence is being in an abusive locked room? Is that not what exaltation is--being in His presence?
Before, they were up there with Him, stagnant, with no free will, and no sin, but they are not exalted???-- now, they have learned to obey and are up there and are no longer stagnant with no free will but exalted?? Maybe I do not understand what exalted means. What, besides having your own planet, and having eternal spouses and children with them, all in the presence of God? How is that exaltation for a woman??

 

[Jane_Doe]

. You still have not told me what it is that God wanted these sin free, beings, who were in His presence to learn down here that they could not learn up there with Him.

To follow God, for starters. And yes, that's following including your parent staring point-blank at them.

Before, they were up there with Him, stagnant, with no free will, and no sin, but they are not exalted???
-- now, they have learned to obey and are up there and are no longer stagnant with no free will but exalted?? Maybe I do not understand what exalted means. What, besides having your own planet, and having eternal spouses and children with them, all in the presence of God? How is that exaltation for a woman??

Exaltation is not about planets.

Exaltation is to having the character like God- perfectly reflecting/embodying His Goodness, Love, Wisdom, Grace, Justice, etc. A pre-existant spirit is in no way exalted- they don't have His wisdom, haven't experienced things and can't reflect/embody His Love, or Justice, or Grace ect. All of those things take experience and learning.

 

[BigDaddy4]

That has nothing to do with this. We're talking about YOUR theology about the world today. Not LDS theology about the after life.

That's not true and you know it. It was the lds who brought up being locked in a room with bubble wrap when discussing the concept of having to "learn" on Earth. That is most definitely NOT our theology! I hope you have the courage to admit you were wrong.

If your parents kept you locked inside a room that was lined with bubble wrap, how much would you learn about the rest of the world?

 

[mmksparbud]

To follow God, for starters. And yes, that's following without your parent staring at them.

Never leaving the room, never experiencing, never learning, never growing. Yes, that is being locked in a room wrapped in bubble wrap.
I let my daughter out of the room, to experience, to live, to learn. Same with the loving Father.

That's choosing to stay in His presence, not being locked in there (never having the choice).

Exaltation is not about planets.

Exaltation is to having the character like God- perfectly reflecting/embodying His Goodness, Love, Wisdom, Grace, Justice, etc. A pre-existant spirit is in no way exalted- they don't have His wisdom, haven't experienced things and can't reflect/embody His Love, or Justice, or Grace ect. All of those things take experience and learning.

So you consider God to be a stern watchdog--lets you have no free will-- keeps you from fully living life--locks you away----that is what the pre-existing beings are experiencing? No wonder they want to get away---what I wonder is why they want to go back.
Fortunately for us Christians, we believe those angels are created to be His messengers, they have free will, or else some would not have left, they love God, love being in His presence, love the world He provides for them, love to do His will--- they are created higher than us. Not only do they not want to leave His presence, they have absolutely no desire to come down here and do so only because they also happen to love us and want to help us. They are there because they do love, and do not need to go anywhere to learn to do so. They do reflect his love, grace, justice--all of His character. And though above us, a d they reflect His character, they can not achieve Godhood either.

 

[Jane_Doe]

So you consider God to be a stern watchdog--lets you have no free will-- keeps you from fully living life--locks you away----that is what the pre-existing beings are experiencing?

No, that is incorrect.

No wonder they want to get away---what I wonder is why they want to go back.
Fortunately for us Christians, we believe those angels are created to be His messengers, they have free will, or else some would not have left, they love God, love being in His presence, love the world He provides for them, love to do His will--- they are created higher than us. Not only do they not want to leave His presence, they have absolutely no desire to come down here and do so only because they also happen to love us and want to help us. They are there because they do love, and do not need to go anywhere to learn to do so. They do reflect his love, grace, justice--all of His character. And though above us, a d they reflect His character, they can not achieve Godhood either.

We have been talking about us humans this post (and God, obviously), not non-human races.

 

[mmksparbud]

No, that is incorrect.

We have been talking about us humans this post (and God, obviously), not non-human races.

What do you mean that is incorrect?? That is what you said these pre-existing beings are experiencing.

???? We have been talking about pre-existing beings and the need to come down here as humans in order to learn to obey and love God according to the Mormon perspective. It is you that said they are up there in a bubble wrap, locked up by God, with no choice and no free will and must come to earth to get a human body and learn all about sin so they can learn what life is really all about and decide if they want to obey God or not.

 

[Jane_Doe]

What do you mean that is incorrect?? That is what you said these pre-existing beings are experiencing.

I did not say that. Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth.

We have been talking about pre-existing beings and the need to come down here as humans in order to learn to obey and love God according to the Mormon perspective. It is you that said they are up there in a bubble wrap, locked up by God, with no choice and no free will and must come to earth to get a human body and learn all about sin so they can learn what life is really all about and decide if they want to obey God or not.

LDS do *not* believe that God locks people up- that not locking up was the reason for creation of the Earth, the Savior, etc.
The non-LDS idea of "God should just force everyone to stay up there" is the keeping everyone locked up in a room. Again, this is *not* an LDS idea.

 

[mmksparbud]

I did not say that. Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth.

LDS do *not* believe that God locks people up- that not locking up was the reason for creation of the Earth, the Savior, etc.
The non-LDS idea of "God should just force everyone to stay up there" is the keeping everyone locked up in a room. Again, this is *not* an LDS idea.

OK___Let's back up. In reality it was not you that first said it:

I said this:

the stupidity is in not being able to learn up there with God, but have to come down here where Satan is the prince of this world and really fail.

To which Ironhold replied:

If your parents kept you locked inside a room that was lined with bubble wrap, how much would you learn about the rest of the world?

which you than parroted.

QUOTE="Jane_Doe, post: 72238556, member: 377805"]There's two choices here:
1) Wrap a child up in bubble wrap and keep them locked in the house all day (which you just described as child abuse)
2) Let them go out and experience the world, while providing way for them to be saved (due to their inventible stumble)

Which do you believe a loving Father would do?[/QUOTE]


I repeat--I am not the one that said living up there with God in this pre-existence is comparable to living locked up in the house wrapped in bubble wrap. The comparison was made by both of you.
I still consider that a horrible comparison for being in the presence of God is in no way comparable to being locked up and wrapped in bubble wrap. Again, There is no reason why thee pre-existing intelligences have to come down here to learn about the wonderful world of life with sin when they are in a sinless world in the presence of God.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I repeat--I am not the one that said living up there with God in this pre-existence is comparable to living locked up in the house wrapped in bubble wrap. The comparison was made by both of you.

LDS do *not* believe that God keeps people locked up (including in the pre-existance). Rather, we believe He's a loving Father that created the Earth etc.

The idea "but why didn't God force people to stay in the pre-exisitance" is being compared to being locked in a room.

Again, There is no reason why thee pre-existing intelligences have to come down here to learn about the wonderful world of life with sin when they are in a sinless world in the presence of God.

Learning involves failing at some point. Learning to follow God involves failing at some point. No one aims to do this, but inevitably it happens (unless your name is Jesus Christ, the perfect Son of God).

 

[mmksparbud]

LDS do *not* believe that God keeps people locked up (including in the pre-existance). Rather, we believe He's a loving Father that created the Earth etc.

The idea "but why didn't God force people to stay in the pre-exisitance" is being compared to being locked in a room.

Learning involves failing at some point. Learning to follow God involves failing at some point. No one aims to do this, but inevitably it happens (unless your name is Jesus Christ, the perfect Son of God).

I never said that God should force these beings to stay in their pre-existence. I said why can't these beings stay up there in the presence of God and learn there. Why must they come down here, if anything it sounds as though they are being made to come down here and learn how to "really live". What if they don't want to come down here? If learning to follow God involves failing, they can fail up there just as easily and God will still help them up. The angels that are there now are doing just fine it seems. Gabriel is mentioned in Daniel and in the NT---oh yah---you all believe he used to be Noah. What's he doing still an angel? He didn't become exalted? Only those that do not reach exaltation stay angels. What did he do or not do that keeps him as being an angel?

 

[Jane_Doe]

I said why can't these beings stay up there in the presence of God and learn there.

Because that would be like trying to learn about the whole world while be looked up in your bedroom. It just doesn't work. True learning/growth happens by going out and experiencing things.

If learning to follow God involves failing, they can fail up there just as easily and God will still help them up.

Because no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God.

The angels that are there now are doing just fine it seems. Gabriel is mentioned in Daniel and in the NT---oh yah---you all believe he used to be Noah. What's he doing still an angel? He didn't become exalted? Only those that do not reach exaltation stay angels. What did he do or not do that keeps him as being an angel?

"Angel" = a messenger. It's a person delivering a message, not another non-human species of being.

 

[mmksparbud]

Because that would be like trying to learn about the whole world while be looked up in your bedroom. It just doesn't work. True learning/growth happens by going out and experiencing things.

Because no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God.

"Angel" = a messenger. It's a person delivering a message, not another non-human species of being.

There you go again--comparing being in the presence of God to being in a locked room!!!

Angels are non--human species. We are made lower than the angels.

Psa_8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Heb_2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb_2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

There are different types---some are cherubim's --they have 2 wings--some are called seraphim's--they have 6 wings. There is one mentioned that has 4 wings. It is the cherubim's that stand in the presence of God in the heavenly temple covering the lord with their wings--as depicted in the ark of the covenant. Gabriel says he stands in the presence of God--Lucifer was an anointed covering cherub---and he did not need to come to earth to learn to sin, he did that all by himself.

 

[Jane_Doe]

There you go again--comparing being in the presence of God to being in a locked room!!!

These two (nonLDS) ideas are very similar:
1) a person was supposed to be created and stay in a space (however fancy) with God forever and never going anywhere and never really learn anything.
2) a person was supposed to be created and stay in a space (however fancy) with whoever in a locked room forever and never going anywhere and never really learn anything.

In both their is no growing or learning.

Angels are non--human species.

Do you believe angels are humans? Yes or no.

 

[mmksparbud]

These two (nonLDS) ideas are very similar:
1) a person was supposed to be created and stay in a space (however fancy) with God forever and never going anywhere and never really learn anything.
2) a person was supposed to be created and stay in a space (however fancy) with whoever in a locked room forever and never going anywhere and never really learn anything.

In both their is no growing or learning.

Do you believe angels are humans? Yes or no.

I do not comprehend the need to compare being in the presence of almighty God in a world where no sin exists as being in a locked room and never growing. All knowledge is in Him---growth would be, at the very least---phenomenal. It would be generally considered--to most Christians ---as heaven.

Absolutely not--Jesus was made lower than the angels in order to become human.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I do not comprehend the need to compare being in the presence of almighty God in a world where no sin exists as being in a locked room and never growing. All knowledge is in Him---growth would be, at the very least---phenomenal. It would be generally considered--to most Christians ---as heaven.

Do you learn and grow without ever making a mistake?

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you learn and grow without ever making a mistake?

Probably not--it depends on what you call a mistake and what it is you are learning.. Learning to sing--you hit a wrong note, you learn that doesn't sound right. You jump up to catch a ball and you don't jump high enough, you learn that next time you jump higher, You jump over a brook and don't jump long enough, you fall in the water---you don't have to come down here to learn that. Perhaps if you could give me an example of what it is that these beings could not learn up there with God. That they could not learn to steal--right---that they could not learn to murder---right---that they could not learn to be mean and rude and hurt others---right---they don't need to learn how to balance a check book, how to drive a car, or fly an airplane---what is it that they were so deprived of up there that they have to come here to learn. Can you please be more explicit.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Probably not--it depends on what you call a mistake and what it is you are learning.. Learning to sing--you hit a wrong note, you learn that doesn't sound right. You jump up to catch a ball and you don't jump high enough, you learn that next time you jump higher, You jump over a brook and don't jump long enough, you fall in the water---you don't have to come down here to learn that. Perhaps if you could give me an example of what it is that these beings could not learn up there with God. That they could not learn to steal--right---that they could not learn to murder---right---that they could not learn to be mean and rude and hurt others---right---they don't need to learn how to balance a check book, how to drive a car, or fly an airplane---what is it that they were so deprived of up there that they have to come here to learn. Can you please be more explicit.

How about following God?
Do you (or any other nonJesus person) learn to do that without ever faltering?

 

[mmksparbud]

How about following God?
Do you (or any other nonJesus person) learn to do that without ever faltering?

Well--let me see. I am up there with almighty God and He asks me to do something---like what??---take out the trash??---no problem. What else? Pick some apples for some of the angels, tough job--maybe I'd rather go play with the lions--OK---I say no, not right now---Now what? Is God going to strike me down with a bold of lightening? Or is He going to be saddened ---and that would hurt me to the quick and I would go running and pick the stupid apples. What could God possibly ask of me that I would not want to do? What command is He going to ask me up there that would require me to come down here to learn to obey??? I simply do not get it.