LDS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!

[Rescued One]

Joseph Fielding Smith was long noted for the depth of his knowledge of the gospel and the scriptures. He served as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for more than 55 years before he was sustained as a counselor in the First Presidency in October 1965 and then as Church President in 1970. In October 1967, he spoke of the blessing for mankind that is known as the Fall of Adam...

"Adam did only what he had to do. He partook of that fruit for one good reason, and that was to open the door to bring you and me and everyone else into this world, for Adam and Eve could have remained in the Garden of Eden; they could have been there to this day, if Eve hadn’t done something.
"One of these days, if I ever get to where I can speak to Mother Eve, I want to thank her for tempting Adam to partake of the fruit. He accepted the temptation, with the result that children came into this world. … If she hadn’t had that influence over Adam, and if Adam had done according to the commandment first given to him, they would still be in the Garden of Eden and we would not be here at all. We wouldn’t have come into this world. So the commentators made a great mistake when they put in the Bible … “man’s shameful fall.
"Well, that was what the Lord expected Adam to do, because that opened the door to mortality; and we came here into this mortal world to receive a training in mortality that we could not get anywhere else or in any other way. We came here into this world to partake of all the vicissitudes, to receive the lessons that we receive in mortality from or in a mortal world. And so we become subject to pain, to sickness. We are blessed for keeping the commandments of the Lord with all that He has given us, which, if we will follow and be true and faithful, will bring us back again into the presence of God our Eternal Father, as sons and daughters of God, entitled to the fulness of celestial glory."
Gospel Classics: - ensign

Even though I knew very little about the Bible, Mormonism made me very uncomfortable.

 

[Peter1000]

It would be somewhat strange that if marriage were central to the Christian message that Christ, His Apostles, and all the ancient fathers would have been so silent on the matter. St. Paul even goes so far as to say that he thinks it's better to remain chaste and celibate than to get married--as he himself was; but that nevertheless marriage is good and some people should get married. Which is, of course, why both marriage and celibacy have been celebrated as good in the Church. Some people get married, some people are celibate; neither life is superior to the other.

-CryptoLutheran

You are right, and that is how it will be in heaven too. Thank you.

 

[Peter1000]

Sin is transgression and transgression of the commandments is sin.

Read your bible dictionary, there is a difference between transgression and sin.
From my understanding, they both break a commandment, but transgression is done more innocently, not knowing. Sin is eyes wide open knowing what you are doing.

 

[Peter1000]

mmksparbud,
You did say this:
-God told them to be fruitful and multiply --what do you think that means and this false teaching that only Satan made it possible for them to have children is prove enough that JS was a false prophet. That is totally against scripture. Had they not fallen, they'd still be multiplying!!

This is not what happened. satan did not cause them to be able to procreate, are you serious. Procreation means being a partner with God in the creation process. Nobody on our side would ever have said that satan was our partner in the procreation process. So we are not going against any of the translations of the bible. But you are.

What we would have said is after the fall Adam and Eve started procreating.
This is exactly what the bible says. The bible gives no assertion that if Adam and Eve would have not transgressed, they would still be there multiplying.
That is the false doctrine and totally against scripture. Find it for me if you can.

Tell me where in the bible there is one single verse that states we are to thank Satan for being able to procreate

This is a ludicrous concept. Mormons do not believe this. So enough.

And tell me where it states we are to have sacred services commemorating this great gift of Satan.

I'm not sure which sacred service you are talking about? If satan is depicted in any of our services, it is to show his determined effort to thwart the plan of God and his Son Jesus Christ, and we must be always mindful of the influence that satan can have over you if you permit him.

We are told satan was in heaven with God, that is a known fact to all Christians. We know he rebelled against God and Jesus in heaven, that is a know fact to all Christians. We know that he convinced 1/3 of the children God to follow him in a war in heaven. We know that satan and his followers lost the war in heaven, and were expelled to the earth.
We know that now on earth, he influenced Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit. We know that satan's followers were chastised by Jesus and were cast out of many. We know that satan and his followers will be bound and thrown into the pit (we call it outer darkness) at the end of the world.
With this knowledge of satan, we can guard against his influence. Without this knowledge you may eventually get bound into his plan and find yourself dragged down to hell with him.

So what ever sacred service you thought we have, having anything good to say about satan, you are mistaken again. I think you know that too. But you continue to put out this false inflammatory information just to rile up people against Mormonism. It only works for those who don't research your insane statements.[/QUOTE]

 

[mmksparbud]

"Soon after Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, they were taught about the atonement of Jesus Christ, and about the resurrection of all mankind that would be brought about through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They understood that they had made a good choice. Leaving the garden allowed them to have children and to begin progressing as mortal beings who would be tested while living away from the presence of God.

And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. (Moses 5: 11)
Mormons discuss the eating of the forbidden fruit as a "transgression," not as a "sin." It was not a sinful act, but a necessary act which Eve and then Adam bravely took upon themselves. Many centuries later, Moses described a vision wherein he saw Adam and Eve rejoicing:

And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.(Moses 5:10)"


That Adam and Eve were joyful over their fall is ludicrous! That it was a necessary act is evn more so!!
You absolutely do teach that Satan provided the means of procreation for without the "joyous fall", there would have been no procreation!!! My statements stand as that is exactly what you teach. You want to word it so it doesn't reflect the truth. You hold sacred a ceremony that depicts the fall of man as a wonderful thing that brought about giving birth! That exactly does what you say it doesn't---it makes Satan the one being necessary for the God given right of procreation!! You need to quite hiding from the truth of your own believes. Adam and Eve were given the right of procreation by God, they simply did not get to it before they fell-----that is a huge, gigantic, enormous leap to the false conclusion that Satan was needed so they could fall and then procreate! Yes---you praise Satan with this evil and false teaching.
Be fruitful and multiply means just that. God gave them permission to do so in the garden. The fall only brought about pain and suffering during the birth process. Jesus need never have died had they not fallen. Birth itself would never have been painful. You celebrate all that is wrong, evil and false.

 

[Peter1000]

"Soon after Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, they were taught about the atonement of Jesus Christ, and about the resurrection of all mankind that would be brought about through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They understood that they had made a good choice. Leaving the garden allowed them to have children and to begin progressing as mortal beings who would be tested while living away from the presence of God.

And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. (Moses 5: 11)
Mormons discuss the eating of the forbidden fruit as a "transgression," not as a "sin." It was not a sinful act, but a necessary act which Eve and then Adam bravely took upon themselves. Many centuries later, Moses described a vision wherein he saw Adam and Eve rejoicing:

And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.(Moses 5:10)"


That Adam and Eve were joyful over their fall is ludicrous! That it was a necessary act is evn more so!!
You absolutely do teach that Satan provided the means of procreation for without the "joyous fall", there would have been no procreation!!! My statements stand as that is exactly what you teach. You want to word it so it doesn't reflect the truth. You hold sacred a ceremony that depicts the fall of man as a wonderful thing that brought about giving birth! That exactly does what you say it doesn't---it makes Satan the one being necessary for the God given right of procreation!! You need to quite hiding from the truth of your own believes. Adam and Eve were given the right of procreation by God, they simply did not get to it before they fell-----that is a huge, gigantic, enormous leap to the false conclusion that Satan was needed so they could fall and then procreate! Yes---you praise Satan with this evil and false teaching.
Be fruitful and multiply means just that. God gave them permission to do so in the garden. The fall only brought about pain and suffering during the birth process. Jesus need never have died had they not fallen. Birth itself would never have been painful. You celebrate all that is wrong, evil and false.

First of all satan did not engineer anything. Do you think that God did not know that Adam and Eve were going to eat of the fruit??? God knew the fall was going to happen and if God used satan to influence Eve, and the fall took place, then so be it. It is satan that was played by God. satan certainly did not produce the fall, God did, and if you think differently, then your God is not very bright to let satan bamboozle Him. Get real.

The bible gives no hints as to how long AE were in the garden, we have no idea why they did not have children there. The idea that they were too busy is laughable. They were naked and were not ashamed, in that context it probably meant that they were like children and did not know they were naked and had no sexual desires to each other. We can debate this forever and never come to a conclusion.

All we know is that they had no children in the garden and then after they fell, they started having children. That is all we are told. Unless Ellen has something different that is all you have to go on. (It certainly does not say they were too busy to have sex.)

To Mormons the fall was necessary in order for all mankind to come to earth. Engineered by God, not by satan. It was glorious for AE to find out that they were forgiven of their transgression and that God still knew them and could hear their prayers. What glorious knowledge when at one time they fugitives and were kicked out of the garden and left alone in a strange knew world to fend for yourself, and to finally know that God was stilll with them. God had lots of contact with Adam and Eve and their family after the fall.

Mainstream Christianity looks at the fall differently, we know. It was a disaster, and now satan is in charge and we are cursed with Adams transgression and we are full of sin from the beginning. We labor under sin and satans influence.

Both of us believe that it is through Jesus that we can overcome the effect of Adams transgression and come back into the presence of God after the resurrection.

The fall, influenced by satan was in the plan, redemption by Jesus was in the plan. There is nowhere in the bible that you can point that the garden was going to be forever and that is what God wanted. Nowhere in the bible says and God expected AE to live in the garden forever and have children for ever who would no sin and it would be a glorious forever. God never said there would be no use for His Son Jesus, nowhere. So I am not sure who is celebrating the wrong and evil designs of satan. God surely knew his plan and it is going forward. Do you really think God would lose us to satan??? Think again. Some will be lost of their own will, but many will be redeemed and return to Him per His plan.

 

[mmksparbud]

Our salvation was assured from the beginning of time. It was still our decision our choice to make. God certainly did not engineer the fall! The fall was not necessary and since man did not exist until God breathed life into Adam, there was no need for them to come to earth because Adam and Eve were already on earth., The garden was in the corner of earth. The whole earth was called Eden.

"and YHWH the Elohiym planted a garden in Eden from the east and placed there the human which he molded,"
Nowhere in the bible does it state that it was God's plan for Adam and Eve to fall, nowhere does it state that the garden was a temporary place---absolutely nowhere. That is a fabrication of JS. I never said they were too busy, those are your words, if you read that post again you will see that. I did say they had much too much on their minds to just jump each other right away. Even today, it is best to get to know each other at least a little bit. Though some take very little time. Good grief, the man hadn't even named her until after the fall! You could at least give them time to learn their names!

 

[fatboys]

Our salvation was assured from the beginning of time. It was still our decision our choice to make. God certainly did not engineer the fall! The fall was not necessary and since man did not exist until God breathed life into Adam, there was no need for them to come to earth because Adam and Eve were already on earth., The garden was in the corner of earth. The whole earth was called Eden.

"and YHWH the Elohiym planted a garden in Eden from the east and placed there the human which he molded,"
Nowhere in the bible does it state that it was God's plan for Adam and Eve to fall, nowhere does it state that the garden was a temporary place---absolutely nowhere. That is a fabrication of JS. I never said they were too busy, those are your words, if you read that post again you will see that. I did say they had much too much on their minds to just jump each other right away. Even today, it is best to get to know each other at least a little bit. Though some take very little time. Good grief, the man hadn't even named her until after the fall! You could at least give them time to learn their names!

Let's use logic. If God wanted them to stay in the garden why was the tree of knowledge of good and evil forbidden to eat? Wh was the tree placed in the garden? Wh was lucifer allowed to tempt them? Since God is a kind loving parent and wanted them to remain in the garden why didn't protect them from from lucifer and the tree? If God wanted them to remain in the garden why didn't they remain in the garden? Since Adam and Eve were innocent in that they did not know the difference between good and evil why didn't God who created them guide them and encourage them to be obedient like a good parent would?
.

 

[mmksparbud]

Let's use logic. If God wanted them to stay in the garden why was the tree of knowledge of good and evil forbidden to eat? Wh was the tree placed in the garden? Wh was lucifer allowed to tempt them? Since God is a kind loving parent and wanted them to remain in the garden why didn't protect them from from lucifer and the tree? If God wanted them to remain in the garden why didn't they remain in the garden? Since Adam and Eve were innocent in that they did not know the difference between good and evil why didn't God who created them guide them and encourage them to be obedient like a good parent would?
.

OK__let's talk logic. What had happened in heaven? Lucifer rebelled and became Satan. The possibility of rebellion was there even for those in the very presence of God. God did not make robots. Satan was around---God was not going to force Adam and Eve to do right. He was not going to place them in a sanitized, controlled environment where they had no choice but to obey. That is not freedom. Even Satan fell without temptation. He gave them everything they needed---now they must choose to hold on to it or not. They had one little choice to make. There were Lord knows how many other trees to eat from, only one of which they could not. God doesn't want forced obedience, a no other choice option, a this way only button --- we either choose to obey Him, or not. That is called freedom of choice. There is no freedom were there is no choice. We, as parents in this fallen world, do try to give our kids no other choice to keep them safe. But there comes a time when they must make their own choices, and live with the consequences. It's called growing up. When you tell a kid to not eat the cookies or he'll get spanked---well, they'll climb the highest mountain to get to them. Or you could store the cookies in a locked room, where they absolutely could not get to them. When they make the choice on their own, they are much happier than when they are forced into submission. Not only is it not freedom, it is not love.

 

[Rescued One]

Let's use logic. If God wanted them to stay in the garden why was the tree of knowledge of good and evil forbidden to eat? Wh was the tree placed in the garden? Wh was lucifer allowed to tempt them? Since God is a kind loving parent and wanted them to remain in the garden why didn't protect them from from lucifer and the tree? If God wanted them to remain in the garden why didn't they remain in the garden? Since Adam and Eve were innocent in that they did not know the difference between good and evil why didn't God who created them guide them and encourage them to be obedient like a good parent would?
.

If you believe they had free will why didn't they have a choice about multiplying?

Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 4
26 And the Gods took counsel among themselves and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness; and we will give them dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them.

28 And the Gods said: We will bless them. And the Gods said: We will cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 

[Rescued One]

You are right, and that is how it will be in heaven too. Thank you.

In the Mormon kingdoms (Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial) people are permanently separated according to supposed worthiness.

D&C 130
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

D&C 132
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

 

[faroukfarouk]

In the Mormon kingdoms (Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial) people are permanently separated according to supposed worthiness.

D&C 130
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

D&C 132
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

Someone from that background once mentioned to me about the need to be worthy. I should mentioned about being "accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1.6).

 

[Rescued One]

Someone from that background once mentioned to me about the need to be worthy. I should mentioned about being "accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1.6).

It was weird being in such a judgmental religion. My faith tells me that I'm only saved by the mercy and grace of God. How could I sit in a church that said a couple has to earn the right to have their marriage sealed for time and eternity?

 

[Peter1000]

Our salvation was assured from the beginning of time. It was still our decision our choice to make. God certainly did not engineer the fall! The fall was not necessary and since man did not exist until God breathed life into Adam, there was no need for them to come to earth because Adam and Eve were already on earth., The garden was in the corner of earth. The whole earth was called Eden.

"and YHWH the Elohiym planted a garden in Eden from the east and placed there the human which he molded,"
Nowhere in the bible does it state that it was God's plan for Adam and Eve to fall, nowhere does it state that the garden was a temporary place---absolutely nowhere. That is a fabrication of JS. I never said they were too busy, those are your words, if you read that post again you will see that. I did say they had much too much on their minds to just jump each other right away. Even today, it is best to get to know each other at least a little bit. Though some take very little time. Good grief, the man hadn't even named her until after the fall! You could at least give them time to learn their names!

Just a couple of things: You say,
1) Our salvation was assured from the beginning of time.
2) It was still our decision our choice to make.
3) God did not engineer the fall.

1) Interesting since you believe we never existed until Adam was breathed into. Now, LDS believe that we have existed since the beginning of time. This lends itself to your thoughts about our salvation was assured from the beginning of time. That thought does not seem to fit with your theology. Please explain.

2) If our salvation was assured from the beginning of time, why do we still need to make a decision or a choice?

3) If God did not engineer the fall, then He must have been caught by surprize when all of a sudden there was this interesting tree that magically grew in the garden that would cause AE to fall if they partook of it, and God was blown away surprized when that little devil satan went into the garden and tempted AE. God must have exploded when found out that AE decided to disobey Him and partook of the fruit.

If it was not part of a plan, it had to be an agonizing surprise. Do you really think God was caught off guard or God was surprized????

If God was not surprized, (which He was not), then He must have known that if He planted the fruit of good and evil tree in the garden and allowed satan to tempt them with a lie, that they would transgress. God had to know that. Therefore God had a plan for them and that plan involved the fall. If you don't believe this, then you have to believe that God got the surprize of His life. Which is it. God knew, of God didn't know???

All JS knew is that God knew the fall would happen, and JS knew that God had a solution for the fall.

 

[mmksparbud]

Just a couple of things: You say,
1) Our salvation was assured from the beginning of time.
2) It was still our decision our choice to make.
3) God did not engineer the fall.

1) Interesting since you believe we never existed until Adam was breathed into. Now, LDS believe that we have existed since the beginning of time. This lends itself to your thoughts about our salvation was assured from the beginning of time. That thought does not seem to fit with your theology. Please explain.

2) If our salvation was assured from the beginning of time, why do we still need to make a decision or a choice?

3) If God did not engineer the fall, then He must have been caught by surprize when all of a sudden there was this interesting tree that magically grew in the garden that would cause AE to fall if they partook of it, and God was blown away surprized when that little devil satan went into the garden and tempted AE. God must have exploded when found out that AE decided to disobey Him and partook of the fruit.

If it was not part of a plan, it had to be an agonizing surprise. Do you really think God was caught off guard or God was surprized????

If God was not surprized, (which He was not), then He must have known that if He planted the fruit of good and evil tree in the garden and allowed satan to tempt them with a lie, that they would transgress. God had to know that. Therefore God had a plan for them and that plan involved the fall. If you don't believe this, then you have to believe that God got the surprize of His life. Which is it. God knew, of God didn't know???

All JS knew is that God knew the fall would happen, and JS knew that God had a solution for the fall.

Yes, God knew what would happen---that does not mean He maneuvered it to happen! He made provision--He did not make it happen.
Look, I knew this kid was going to end up pregnant. I warned her what could happen, I tried to keep her from it, I was totally not taken by surprise when she ended up pregnant. I had bought baby yarn. But I didn't make her do it. She had the freedom to choose.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

[Peter1000]

Yes, God knew what would happen---that does not mean He maneuvered it to happen! He made provision--He did not make it happen.
Look, I knew this kid was going to end up pregnant. I warned her what could happen, I tried to keep her from it, I was totally not taken by surprise when she ended up pregnant. I had bought baby yarn. But I didn't make her do it. She had the freedom to choose.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Whether God engineered it (still giving them their choice) or He had full knowledge it would happen, He still was fully prepared with the perfect solution, which was, sending His Son Jesus to the earth to be our Savior.

 

[mmksparbud]

Absolutely.

 

[Rescued One]

Let's use logic. If God wanted them to stay in the garden why was the tree of knowledge of good and evil forbidden to eat? Wh was the tree placed in the garden? Wh was lucifer allowed to tempt them? Since God is a kind loving parent and wanted them to remain in the garden why didn't protect them from from lucifer and the tree? If God wanted them to remain in the garden why didn't they remain in the garden? Since Adam and Eve were innocent in that they did not know the difference between good and evil why didn't God who created them guide them and encourage them to be obedient like a good parent would?
.

So you say it's okay for God to set them up? Then He banned them because He wouldn't allow them to have children in the Garden?

 

[fatboys]

So you say it's okay for God to set them up? Then He banned them because He wouldn't allow them to have children in the Garden?

THEY DIDNT KNOW THEY WERE NAKED. THEY WERE INNOCENT AS A CHILD IS. THEY DIDNT KNOW GOOD FROM EVIL. EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE VERY INTELLIGENT THE LACKED EXPERIENCE. This is reason they were fooled by Lucifer to disobey. Lucifer thought that he had disrupted Gods plan. But God knows all things.

 

[BigDaddy4]

.