LDS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!

BigDaddy4

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You know by now that Jane does not rely solely on Mark 16:16. You know that.
However, Mark 16:16 is used to throw light on your determination to believe this: all a person has to do is believe and they are automatically saved at that moment in time and get a free pass into heaven. We use Mark 16:16 because it explodes that entire false teaching.
Are you now Jane's spokesperson? That is the only Scripture she provided.
Let me repeat for you
An absolute statement like "baptism is required for salvation" must hold up to scrutiny (Acts 17:11). It doesn't. John 3:16, 6:48, Romans 10:9, Eph. 2:8-9, etc. have not such requirment attached to them. Therefore, the lds absolute statement of "baptism is required for salvation" cannot be True.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Those who do not have the opportunity to marry in this life still have families (Obviously).

Maybe it was a long day at work, but it's not so obvious at the moment, kindly elaborate.
 
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Peter1000

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Faith comes from God. Without the faith He gives, a person can't believe --- so how does a person believe --- faith isn't something he can produce. God's grace is the means by which we are conformed to the image of Christ. So salvation isn't a dead gift --- it is alive!

1) A person hears the word of God.
2) A person receives the testimony of the HS.
3) A person then starts to believe.
4) God sees this process going on and gives this person the capacity to have faith.
5) That capacity in the beginning simply includes answers to prayers.
6) As the person follows the proper path, and they do as Jesus wants them to do, their capacity to have faith increases (grace by grace). The waters of regeneration, cause the person to enjoy a new start, a new birth, a knew person in the Lord.
7) As this persons faith grows, they can start to ask and it will be received. Knock and it shall be opened. Faith continues to grow faster and more brilliant.
8) As the person accepts Jesus fully, and is refreshed and is clean and is applying their faith, good works are spontaneous and gladly given. This giving of good works helps to bring fruit for the KOG here on earth and the KOH in heaven. Good works is a sign to the world that you are applying your faith in God and that you are of Him. Jesus continues to add grace upon grace and it becomes easier and easier to follow his commandments and live according to his will.
9) When this person comes to the judgement bar, the books will be opened and their good works will be examined and if you are found worthy, the final gift of grace is given by Jesus that finally cleanses you of all sins, and allows you to enter into the highest levels of the KOH.
10) If you are kind of worthy, the books will testify of your kind of good works, and the final gift of grace will be given and you will be allowed to enter heaven and live in a lower level the KOH.
11) Finally those that did not develop grace from grace, and the books were opened and their good works were very far and inbetween wickedness. But the final grace of God allowed then to come into the lowest level of the KOH.

So you must believe, and Jesus will offer you a gift of grace and allow you into the KOH. How you develop and apply your faith and how your faith influences you to good works will define your place in the KOH. This is a good saying.
 
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Rescued One

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1) A person hears the word of God.
2) A person receives the testimony of the HS.
3) A person then starts to believe.

Why do you say "starts to believe"? Some are given faith, some aren't.

We are delivered from the power of Satan unto God.

4) God sees this process going on and gives this person the capacity to have faith.

Where is the verse that says He only gives a capacity for faith?

5) That capacity in the beginning simply includes answers to prayers.
6) As the person follows the proper path, and they do as Jesus wants them to do, their capacity to have faith increases (grace by grace).

My faith isn't dependent on my works. My works are the result of my faith which I didn't create or deserve.

The waters of regeneration, cause the person to enjoy a new start, a new birth, a knew person in the Lord.

The decision to be baptised is a result of regeneration. God is the cause.

John 3
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


7) As this persons faith grows, they can start to ask and it will be received.

We receive if we ask according to His will.

Romans 8
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

2 Corinthians 12
7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Knock and it shall be opened. Faith continues to grow faster and more brilliant.
8) As the person accepts Jesus fully, and is refreshed and is clean and is applying their faith, good works are spontaneous and gladly given.

We don't accept Jesus partially. That isn't faith.

This giving of good works helps to bring fruit for the KOG here on earth and the KOH in heaven. Good works is a sign to the world that you are applying your faith in God and that you are of Him. Jesus continues to add grace upon grace and it becomes easier and easier to follow his commandments and live according to his will.
9) When this person comes to the judgement bar, the books will be opened and their good works will be examined and if you are found worthy, the final gift of grace is given by Jesus that finally cleanses you of all sins, and allows you to enter into the highest levels of the KOH.;/QUOTE]

The one who received the new birth has been found worthy by the blood of Christ and that person's name is in the Lamb's Book of Life.

10) If you are kind of worthy, the books will testify of your kind of good works, and the final gift of grace will be given and you will be allowed to enter heaven and live in a lower level the KOH.

No one is kind of worthy. Christ's blood doesn't partially cleanse a person. That contradicts the word of God. And God's kingdom isn't divided.


11) Finally those that did not develop grace from grace, and the books were opened and their good works were very far and inbetween wickedness. But the final grace of God allowed then to come into the lowest level of the KOH.

There is no lowest level in God's kingdom. Joseph Smith invented that idea.

So you must believe, and Jesus will offer you a gift of grace and allow you into the KOH. How you develop and apply your faith and how your faith influences you to good works will define your place in the KOH. This is a good saying.

A false teaching isn't a good saying!
 
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mmksparbud

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1) A person hears the word of God.
2) A person receives the testimony of the HS.
3) A person then starts to believe.
4) God sees this process going on and gives this person the capacity to have faith.
5) That capacity in the beginning simply includes answers to prayers.
6) As the person follows the proper path, and they do as Jesus wants them to do, their capacity to have faith increases (grace by grace). The waters of regeneration, cause the person to enjoy a new start, a new birth, a knew person in the Lord.
7) As this persons faith grows, they can start to ask and it will be received. Knock and it shall be opened. Faith continues to grow faster and more brilliant.
8) As the person accepts Jesus fully, and is refreshed and is clean and is applying their faith, good works are spontaneous and gladly given. This giving of good works helps to bring fruit for the KOG here on earth and the KOH in heaven. Good works is a sign to the world that you are applying your faith in God and that you are of Him. Jesus continues to add grace upon grace and it becomes easier and easier to follow his commandments and live according to his will.
9) When this person comes to the judgement bar, the books will be opened and their good works will be examined and if you are found worthy, the final gift of grace is given by Jesus that finally cleanses you of all sins, and allows you to enter into the highest levels of the KOH.
10) If you are kind of worthy, the books will testify of your kind of good works, and the final gift of grace will be given and you will be allowed to enter heaven and live in a lower level the KOH.
11) Finally those that did not develop grace from grace, and the books were opened and their good works were very far and inbetween wickedness. But the final grace of God allowed then to come into the lowest level of the KOH.

So you must believe, and Jesus will offer you a gift of grace and allow you into the KOH. How you develop and apply your faith and how your faith influences you to good works will define your place in the KOH. This is a good saying.


The decision of who is saved will have been made when Jesus comes to get us---There is no standing at the judgement bar for the saved. He comes and they are gathered and taken to be with Him for the 1000 years. Judgement has been determined before Jesus comes to get us.
ev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The only ones that being judged according to their works, are the lost to determine their punishment.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The saved are already written in the book of Life when Jesus returns for us. The lost stay dead until after the 1000 years, then they are resurrected and face judgment.
There is no 2nd chance. But you're free to believe whatever you want, there are many who will be think9nbg they get a 2nd chance--and don't, and they will curse the one who told them they did.
 
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Rescued One

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So I suspect you would not have followed the apostles and prophets, in the NT church or your bishop, or the elders etc., because they were all (men) too. Because you would have gone to the synagogue and tried to get a private reading of the Torah, and been turned down because you were a female.

You would have been very frustrated with 1st century living and I don't know what would have happened to you.

Men are called of God to receive his word and reveal it unto the masses. Who take the word and govern their lives according to his word. This is the pattern since the beginning, it will not be different in the end.

You don't know what you're talking about. I believe the scriptures that God gave to me to read. He chose the time and place of my birth and He gave me faith. In those days he gave many women faith.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It would be somewhat strange that if marriage were central to the Christian message that Christ, His Apostles, and all the ancient fathers would have been so silent on the matter. St. Paul even goes so far as to say that he thinks it's better to remain chaste and celibate than to get married--as he himself was; but that nevertheless marriage is good and some people should get married. Which is, of course, why both marriage and celibacy have been celebrated as good in the Church. Some people get married, some people are celibate; neither life is superior to the other.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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mmksparbud

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Men are called of God to receive his word and reveal it unto the masses. Who take the word and govern their lives according to his word. This is the pattern since the beginning, it will not be different in the end.

LOL!! When we say that God has spoken to His prophets directly, without the use of translating stones in a hat because that is the way He has always done it--you say God can do whatever He wants and if He wants to do it differently with JS--He can----Well, if God wants to change the pattern ---He can.
Act_2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
 
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Peter1000

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Cherry picking is taking a scripture verse out of context and trying to make it say what you want it to say. As much as possible, I do not do that. So you are falsely accusing me.

You are absolutely dillusional. Your Genesis scripture about 'the man' is the perfect example of what you just said is cherry picking. While it is true that God was talking to Adam, Adam represents all men.

If God thinks this man Adam should not be alone, do you think it is OK by God that all other men can be alone? This is what you are implying. You are implying that God meant Adam only, and that he didn't mean anything for any other man except Adam. This is an absurd interpretation, and I think you know it, and are gleefully playing me.

I interpret this saying that Adam is the example of all the men that will follow him, and if it is not good for him to be alone, it must not be good for other men to be alone. But since this is about LDS marriage and you are against it, you have decided to interpret this scripture in your favor. You certainly know that there are at least 2 interpretations of this scripture. Aren't you the one that just said, "I do not do that."

Are you going to continue in your misrepresentation of what was actually said? Jesus said what the 2 most important commandments were, not me. I'll stick with what he said.

I believe Jesus too. Are there other commandments besides the big 2?
Are they important too?

This does not support your celestial marriage assertion.

First of all, the cleaving together of a man and his wife means they are married.

Did God put a time limit a man cleaving to his wife ( or being married) to his wife)? No.

If it had said that a man should cleave unto his wife until he dies, then you could make your point.

But it doesn't, therefore I can make a point that for certain couples, this cleaving together to be one flesh could be an eternal marriage.

Only if scripture is misused to fit the lds agenda. Scripture actually supports the marriage ends at death (Romans 7:1-3, 1 Cor. 7:39). Nowhere is it found in Scripture that one has to be married to receive some higher level of salvation/exhaltation.

This is an interesting situation. But first of all both scriptures are talking about this womans time on earth. I have a temple marriage to my wife. As long as I live she cannot go out and marry another man without committing adultery.
However, if I die, she has the right to marry a man of her choice, without committing adultery. So the 2 scriptures you quoted are true. Only while she is on the earth.

Since we were married for both time (on earth)and eternity (for eternity), and in the Lord, when she dies, her marriage to the other man is void, and she will return to me and we will continue our eternal marriage for eternity.

As it says, it is not good for Adam to be alone, or Eve, or any other man, or any other woman. For the man is not without the woman, nor the woman without the man. Therefore the Lord has taken into consideration what happens when one of the partners die. These 2 scriptures are true, but only for this earth, it does not talk about eternity. Does that mean that marriage does not last for eternity, no, it just means the scriptures were addressing if one partner dies, what are the rules on this earth for the other partner.

More of your cherry picking and trying to make scripture say something it does not. While the Sermon on the Mount is full of good theology, "be perfect" is found in only one verse. And only in the first of the 3 chapters it covers. So, again, you are trying to make it apply to the whole Sermon instead of the one topic - love - where it actually is written.

OK, I do not agree with you, but OK, it says that we need to be as perfect as God is in loving Him and our neighbor.

Do you think we can be as perfect in loving God and our nieghbor as God is?

No human was, is, or ever will be perfect, save for Jesus, while they live on this earth of loving God and loving others. We are sinners. When we sin, we are not loving God perfectly, and possibly not loving others perfectly as well, depending on the sin.

First of all you are incorrect. Job was said to be perfect, and Noah was perfect, and if these 2 we know were perfect, there were many, many more not recorded in the bible.
Paul even tells us to be perfect (2nd Corinthians 13:11). Why would Paul tell us to be perfect after he told us that it is by grace, not of works that saves us???
We continue to need apostles and prophets because Paul says that they were given by Jesus for the perfecting of the saints. If Paul says Jesus says the apostles and prophets were here to perfect the saints, do you doubt anyone can be perfect?

This scripture answers your Matthew 5:48 perfect question.
1 John 2:5King James Version (KJV)
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

It is by keeping Jesus's word, that the love of God is perfected, and it is by this means that we know that we, (or any man) is in him. (my parenthesis)
So keep Jesus's word and you will be perfect in loving God and your neighbor.

Notice it is not by hearing the word, or even believing the word, or being given faith, or by being given grace, but it is by doing the word, or IOW doing good works. So keep up the good works.
 
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Peter1000

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LOL!! When we say that God has spoken to His prophets directly, without the use of translating stones in a hat because that is the way He has always done it--you say God can do whatever He wants and if He wants to do it differently with JS--He can----Well, if God wants to change the pattern ---He can.
Act_2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
You are right, but he still uses mortals to declare His message. He rarely comes down and hovers over the earth and make a triumphant anouncement. But thats not to say he will not, he just has had a record of choosing mortals to get His word out. If he changes his methods, then He does, and who are we to council Him?
 
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Peter1000

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It would be somewhat strange that if marriage were central to the Christian message that Christ, His Apostles, and all the ancient fathers would have been so silent on the matter. St. Paul even goes so far as to say that he thinks it's better to remain chaste and celibate than to get married--as he himself was; but that nevertheless marriage is good and some people should get married. Which is, of course, why both marriage and celibacy have been celebrated as good in the Church. Some people get married, some people are celibate; neither life is superior to the other.

-CryptoLutheran
I can go along with you on your statement.

One thing is difficult though: living the first commandment ever given, which is: be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth. Only married couples can be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth. So I lean towards marriage as be superior.
 
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mmksparbud

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I interpret this saying that Adam is the example of all the men that will follow him, and if it is not good for him to be alone, it must not be good for other men to be alone. But since this is about LDS marriage and you are against it, you have decided to interpret this scripture in your favor. You certainly know that there are at least 2 interpretations of this scripture. Aren't you the one that just said, "I do not do that."

I will repost this:

God instituted marriage---He created Eve because He said it is not good for man to be alone----there was not one single other human there. Only animals. Of course it was obvious that every animal had a mate and Adam did not---Had Adam and Eve not fallen, they would still be in that same relationship and they had been given instructions to be fruitful and multiply. It is a lie that only after the fall were they able to procreate---God told them to be fruitful and multiply --what do you think that means and this false teaching that only Satan made it possible for them to have children is prove enough that JS was a false prophet. That is totally against scripture. Had they not fallen, they'd still be multiplying!!
Now---you'd think he would have been smart enough to leave that alone as he could have used that to substantiate a forever, eternal marriage---but he was not speaking for God and couldn't see the obvious.
There is no contradiction between Paul and God. It is still not good for man to be alone. But we are now in a fallen world with other sinners. The need for companionship is there, but there are millions of other humans now, and we have opportunity for friends which, before Eve, Adam did not. The whole thing was blown by Adam and Eve when they fell. The whole relationship changed, for it was only after the fall that God said

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Paul is talking about marriage with mans' fallen nature, not as God had made him. Jesus plainly stated the changed relationship now, after the fall, and that there is no marriage in heaven anymore. There will no longer be any need of it. No one will ever be alone again. He never said we would not be in relationships, that we would not have companionship---that we would not be with close friends forever. We will be. But there is no longer any need for sex--that is exactly what it boils down to for the children have been born. God will resurrect the innocent that have died. And those babies will be cared for and we will watch them grow. We will never have a need for a sexual partnership is what JS could not accept because of his own lust for women and wanting multiple wives on this earth and the next.
God gave Adam one woman-----period. If He felt he should have more, He would have created more than one for Him, but He did not.
Jesus stepped down from His being solely divine in order to save us---and He retains His humanity for ever. That is the price He paid. Things changed after the fall. Sex will not be a part of eternal life. That is the price we pay. But love and companionship and friendships will be, and each and everyone one will be eternal. God does not take away from us anything that we need. I will take His judgment over the fantasies of JS any day. If Jesus says there is no marriage in heaven, then there is none--He should know, He instituted it. JS was either deceived or he lied through his teeth, either way---what he says is not of God.
 
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Peter1000

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I will repost this:
Your assertion that Adam and Eve had children in the Garden is false. If it is true then you must give me a scripture that says something like: And Adam knew Eve and she was great with child and after the appropriate time Eve conceived and bore a child and the child was weened on the nectar of fruit juices from the garden. A short time later, Eve conceived again amongst the beauty of the garden....
If you cannot produce a scripture that expressly states Adam and Eve had children in the garden, then please stop saying JS lied about that. At least tell us why you believe your position, with more evidence than God told them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth. This is not evidence that they actually did in their garden experience.

Adam and Eve were naked in the garden and they were not ashamed, which means that their ability to have children did not exist yet, they did not know about what that was all about. In many ways they were like children, without the desire to have a sexual union. Tell me if you think differently.

The only evidence of children starts with them being chastised for transgressing. Eve is told that during childbirth she would experience pain and suffering. (Does that mean she had not conceived yet??? To me that means yes.)
The next thing you know, we are in chapter 4 and she is bareing Cain and Able and as far as I can tell, they are her first known children, 0 in the garden, and now and at least 2 since the fall.

Jesus said in the resurrection there will be neither marrying or given in marriage, he did not say there would be no marriage. Those married in the Lord before the resurrection will stay married for all eternity. Those not married in the Lord before the resurrection will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Jesus was right.

You have no idea what your relationship with other people will be in the resurrection. No idea. Show me a social relationship scripture after the resurrection and lets see if we can interpret it your way. You can't find one except that some will be like the angels of heaven. And so what is that like. You do not know, so you are guessing. Does Ellen tell us how it will be? Let me know.

Jesus retaining his humanity is not a price he must pay. It is necessary per Jesus that we have bodies of flesh and bone and spirit, why, because that is the kind of body that God has. My explanation is more plausible than Jesus had to pay a price for saving us. What are you talking about. Again, is this Ellen's notion. It certainly is not the bible's. Jesus seems very proud of his after-resurrection body and showed it off plenty. So he like his body, and being in an exact representation of his Father, God the Father, we know he has an exact same kind of body.

If all fits nicely, just as JS and Jesus say.
 
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fatboys

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It would be somewhat strange that if marriage were central to the Christian message that Christ, His Apostles, and all the ancient fathers would have been so silent on the matter. St. Paul even goes so far as to say that he thinks it's better to remain chaste and celibate than to get married--as he himself was; but that nevertheless marriage is good and some people should get married. Which is, of course, why both marriage and celibacy have been celebrated as good in the Church. Some people get married, some people are celibate; neither life is superior to the other.

-CryptoLutheran
I wonder when Christ was teaching the Pharisees what they thought of his teachings and what they came back with to try and debate him?
 
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mmksparbud

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If it’s not good for man to be alone in this life why on earth would it be okay in the next?

Did you not read the post???
Adam was alone---totally alone---not one single other human. Of course there was God and the animals, but not one other HUMAN. In the next world no one is alone---no one. We have friends, companionship of millions of other saved humans besides God, animals, Jesus and the angelic host not to mention what other creations there may be out in the universe. All of us humans having shared the process of having been lost and saved and made whole ---all of one accord--there is no need for marriage and Jesus said there is none. His word is enough.
 
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