LDS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!

[Rescued One]

If it’s not good for man to be alone in this life why on earth would it be okay in the next?

Adam was the ONLY human when God said that. Unmarried people have friends or family or they are hermits. If God wants every human to be married, He can arrange that. Heaven isn't empty. No one in heaven will be alone.

 

[mmksparbud]

Your assertion that Adam and Eve had children in the Garden is false. If it is true then you must give me a scripture that says something like: And Adam knew Eve and she was great with child and after the appropriate time Eve conceived and bore a child and the child was weened on the nectar of fruit juices from the garden. A short time later, Eve conceived again amongst the beauty of the garden....
If you cannot produce a scripture that expressly states Adam and Eve had children in the garden, then please stop saying JS lied about that. At least tell us why you believe your position, with more evidence than God told them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth. This is not evidence that they actually did in their garden experience.

Adam and Eve were naked in the garden and they were not ashamed, which means that their ability to have children did not exist yet, they did not know about what that was all about. In many ways they were like children, without the desire to have a sexual union. Tell me if you think differently.

The only evidence of children starts with them being chastised for transgressing. Eve is told that during childbirth she would experience pain and suffering. (Does that mean she had not conceived yet??? To me that means yes.)
The next thing you know, we are in chapter 4 and she is bareing Cain and Able and as far as I can tell, they are her first known children, 0 in the garden, and now and at least 2 since the fall.

Jesus said in the resurrection there will be neither marrying or given in marriage, he did not say there would be no marriage. Those married in the Lord before the resurrection will stay married for all eternity. Those not married in the Lord before the resurrection will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Jesus was right.

You have no idea what your relationship with other people will be in the resurrection. No idea. Show me a social relationship scripture after the resurrection and lets see if we can interpret it your way. You can't find one except that some will be like the angels of heaven. And so what is that like. You do not know, so you are guessing. Does Ellen tell us how it will be? Let me know.

Jesus retaining his humanity is not a price he must pay. It is necessary per Jesus that we have bodies of flesh and bone and spirit, why, because that is the kind of body that God has. My explanation is more plausible than Jesus had to pay a price for saving us. What are you talking about. Again, is this Ellen's notion. It certainly is not the bible's. Jesus seems very proud of his after-resurrection body and showed it off plenty. So he like his body, and being in an exact representation of his Father, God the Father, we know he has an exact same kind of body.

If all fits nicely, just as JS and Jesus say.

They had permission to procreate as did all of creation---That they did not get down to it before the fall is obvious! But they were told to be fruitful and multiply. For crying out loud---give them a break. They had just been created, they have a whole world to see for the first time, they have a God and animals to get to know--they have just been introduced to each other---do you mind if they take some time to take all this in before they realize there is still a whole other aspect to this life that they will be also just about to learn when Satan threw a wrench in the works. So what if they didn't get to it before they fell----it is one whale of a huge, monumental, giant leap to come to the conclusion that Satan is to be credited for them being able to procreate!!! They had God's permission to do so, they certainly did not need Satan's permission!! Nobody has claimed they had children in the garden---no one!! Not being ashamed that they were naked in no way means they were unable to procreate--there are many people today who have no shame in being naked and there are Nudist Colonies for them. Talk to a few of them, they do not get all hot and bothered about it as they are used to it. Adam and Eve definitely were at the wide-eyed and innocent stage---had they not fallen first, they would have been doing the horizontal mumbo real soon -- that is what be fruitful and multiply meant---what do you think God meant by that???
And by the way--00the bible does not say "some" will be like the angels in heaven----

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

"some" is not in there. And you know what----I can throw out anything that Ellen says and still have the same believes because those believes come from simply reading the word of God, not the word of any man or woman. I have my own brain and the Holy Spirit and if anybody says that Satan is to be credited for us being able to have children I would tell them, no matter if it were Ellen herself--to stuff it up her nose!! Tell me where in the bible there is one single verse that states we are to thank Satan for being able to procreate when God plainly had given them permission to do so. And tell me where it states we are to have sacred services commemorating this great gift of Satan.

 

[Rescued One]

LDS teachings:
Most Christian churches teach that the Fall was a tragedy, that if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit, they and all their posterity could now be living in immortal bliss in the Garden of Eden. But truth revealed to latter-day prophets teaches that the Fall was not a tragedy—without it Adam and Eve would have had no posterity. Thus, the Fall was a necessary step in Heavenly Father’s plan to bring about the eternal happiness of His children.

“If Adam had not transgressed,” Lehi taught his son Jacob, “he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. …

“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

“But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Ne. 2:22–25).
The Fulness of the Gospel: - ensign

Pearl of Great Price, Moses 5
10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have knowngood and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
Moses 5

 

[mmksparbud]

LDS teachings:
Most Christian churches teach that the Fall was a tragedy, that if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit, they and all their posterity could now be living in immortal bliss in the Garden of Eden. But truth revealed to latter-day prophets teaches that the Fall was not a tragedy—without it Adam and Eve would have had no posterity. Thus, the Fall was a necessary step in Heavenly Father’s plan to bring about the eternal happiness of His children.

“If Adam had not transgressed,” Lehi taught his son Jacob, “he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. …

“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

“But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Ne. 2:22–25).
The Fulness of the Gospel: - ensign

Pearl of Great Price, Moses 5
10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have knowngood and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
Moses 5

This concept of theirs, and the so called, sacred ceremony, commemorating this event and in effect giving glory to Satan for the privilege of having fallen is the single most obscene thing about this church that ended up just offending me to the core of my being and I had to remove myself from further debates with them for a long time. To commemorates such a horrible tragedy and give honor to Satan for it, is abhorrent and is a slap to God Himself who, because of this fall, now had to give His Son to a life of tragedy, poverty, humiliation and His very being changed from solely divine to a lowly human also. He had to watch for over 30 years His struggles and to witness His torture. Because of Satan we have had millions of people suffer horribly, be subject to the elements, some lost forever, the earth itself cursed and unable to produce what we require for food, led to the human soul being in a state of depravity so extreme that the whole planet ends up wiped out and will be again in order to get it cleansed and remade, be responsible for the very degradation of the gift of procreation to such depths of horror as child rape------To praise the one that caused this is a total abomination. What is even sadder, is that they are so wrapped up in JS and his teachings, that they can not see it for what it is. It is the single strongest case for JS not being of God that there is. Who else but Satan himself, would be praising him for the single most saddest and detestable thing to happen to the human race, and all of creation itself. It must make all of heaven weep to see this ceremony.

 

[BigDaddy4]

You are absolutely dillusional. Your Genesis scripture about 'the man' is the perfect example of what you just said is cherry picking. While it is true that God was talking to Adam, Adam represents all men.

Wow, how ironic. The bolded is your, or your religion's, insertation of something that Scripture does not say. My position is what Scripture actually does say, and you choose to call me dillusional and accuse me of cherry picking.

If God thinks this man Adam should not be alone, do you think it is OK by God that all other men can be alone? This is what you are implying. You are implying that God meant Adam only, and that he didn't mean anything for any other man except Adam. This is an absurd interpretation, and I think you know it, and are gleefully playing me.

I'm not playing you nor implying anything other than what the Scripture plainly says. That man is Adam. Others have chimed in on that point, so I'll just leave it at that.

I interpret this saying that Adam is the example of all the men that will follow him, and if it is not good for him to be alone, it must not be good for other men to be alone. But since this is about LDS marriage and you are against it, you have decided to interpret this scripture in your favor. You certainly know that there are at least 2 interpretations of this scripture. Aren't you the one that just said, "I do not do that."

A plain reading of Scripture for what it says can only logically be interpretted one way - Adam was alone and God said he needed a helpmate. Your interpretation makes the illogical leap to say that is a representation of all men. You have to make that leap because that is what your religion is telling you to do. But it's not what Scripture says.

I believe Jesus too. Are there other commandments besides the big 2?
Are they important too?

Jesus did not consider any other commandments to be equal to or greater than these two greatest commands. He said "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments".

First of all, the cleaving together of a man and his wife means they are married.

Did God put a time limit a man cleaving to his wife ( or being married) to his wife)? No.

If it had said that a man should cleave unto his wife until he dies, then you could make your point.

But it doesn't, therefore I can make a point that for certain couples, this cleaving together to be one flesh could be an eternal marriage.

Actually yes God did put a limit on being married. It's called death, and is supported by Scripture. No where in Scripture does it say married for time and eternity. That's an lds introduction of false teaching.

Since we were married for both time (on earth)and eternity (for eternity), and in the Lord, when she dies, her marriage to the other man is void, and she will return to me and we will continue our eternal marriage for eternity.

You are free to believe that, but Scripture does not support it.

As it says, it is not good for Adam to be alone, or Eve, or any other man, or any other woman. For the man is not without the woman, nor the woman without the man. Therefore the Lord has taken into consideration what happens when one of the partners die. These 2 scriptures are true, but only for this earth, it does not talk about eternity. Does that mean that marriage does not last for eternity, no, it just means the scriptures were addressing if one partner dies, what are the rules on this earth for the other partner.

I asked you for a citation on the bold and you did not provide it. So I looked it up and it appears to come from 1 Cor 11:11. In a section talking about head coverings during worshop, you try to relate it to marriage?? Talk about more cherry picking! Once again, lds teaching does not line up with what Scripture actually says.

OK, I do not agree with you, but OK, it says that we need to be as perfect as God is in loving Him and our neighbor.

Do you think we can be as perfect in loving God and our nieghbor as God is?

Not in this life.

First of all you are incorrect. Job was said to be perfect, and Noah was perfect, and if these 2 we know were perfect, there were many, many more not recorded in the bible.
Paul even tells us to be perfect (2nd Corinthians 13:11). Why would Paul tell us to be perfect after he told us that it is by grace, not of works that saves us???

"Perfect" does not mean sinless. It means upright, without blemish, whole. Noah and Job walked with God, but they were not sinless.

We continue to need apostles and prophets because Paul says that they were given by Jesus for the perfecting of the saints. If Paul says Jesus says the apostles and prophets were here to perfect the saints, do you doubt anyone can be perfect?

Why do you leave out the context? Hence, more cherry picking. Perfecting, in context, means to build up the body of Christ so that it works in unity, and not be influenced by false wind of doctrine like what Joseph Smith introduced. Notice the word love is a key part in this perfecting process.
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

This scripture answers your Matthew 5:48 perfect question.
1 John 2:5King James Version (KJV)
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

It is by keeping Jesus's word, that the love of God is perfected, and it is by this means that we know that we, (or any man) is in him. (my parenthesis)
So keep Jesus's word and you will be perfect in loving God and your neighbor.

Notice it is not by hearing the word, or even believing the word, or being given faith, or by being given grace, but it is by doing the word, or IOW doing good works. So keep up the good works.

Again, in context, John is talking about loving your brother and walking in the light of Christ. He who hates his brother, walks in darkness. Therefore, by loving God and loving one's neighbor, one is keeping Jesus' word.

 

[BigDaddy4]

This concept of theirs, and the so called, sacred ceremony, commemorating this event and in effect giving glory to Satan for the privilege of having fallen

When's reading Phoebe Ann's post of lds teachings, and before I read your post, I had this same exact thought. Giving glory to Satan for the fall is just so wrong!

 

[fatboys]

When's reading Phoebe Ann's post of lds teachings, and before I read your post, I had this same exact thought. Giving glory to Satan for the fall is just so wrong!

What a silly comment. Satan is evil. He was evil before the foundations of the earth. He was evil before he was not placed in a spirit body. He had great knowledge and power but he abused that power so he was cast out. He was aloud to tempt eve. Satan did not need to be present for man to fall. They would have fallen and the plan of progression would have continued. There is no glorifying Satan.

 

[BigDaddy4]

What a silly comment. Satan is evil. He was evil before the foundations of the earth. He was evil before he was not placed in a spirit body. He had great knowledge and power but he abused that power so he was cast out. He was aloud to tempt eve. Satan did not need to be present for man to fall. They would have fallen and the plan of progression would have continued. There is no glorifying Satan.

You are correct, Satan is evil. Therefore, gloryfying him is silly, which is what these teachings do:

LDS teachings:
Most Christian churches teach that the Fall was a tragedy, that if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit, they and all their posterity could now be living in immortal bliss in the Garden of Eden. But truth revealed to latter-day prophets teaches that the Fall was not a tragedy—without it Adam and Eve would have had no posterity. Thus, the Fall was a necessary step in Heavenly Father’s plan to bring about the eternal happiness of His children.

“If Adam had not transgressed,” Lehi taught his son Jacob, “he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. …

“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

“But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Ne. 2:22–25).
The Fulness of the Gospel: - ensign

Pearl of Great Price, Moses 5
10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have knowngood and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
Moses 5

To say that Adam and Eve could not have children unless they sinned or transgressed is putting the power of sin (Satan) over the power of God. Your own scripture says that they "might have joy" that they fell. Staying in Eden with God or falling and being cast out - which is more joyous? According to lds teaching, being cast out was. Yes, the lds have a silly teaching.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Adam was the ONLY human when God said that. Unmarried people have friends or family or they are hermits. If God wants every human to be married, He can arrange that. Heaven isn't empty. No one in heaven will be alone.

Paul in the New Testament was happy to remain single in the Lord's service, while - in the Lord - he acknowledged being married as a blessing for those who opted for it.

 

[fatboys]

You are correct, Satan is evil. Therefore, gloryfying him is silly, which is what these teachings do:


To say that Adam and Eve could not have children unless they sinned or transgressed is putting the power of sin (Satan) over the power of God. Your own scripture says that they "might have joy" that they fell. Staying in Eden with God or falling and being cast out - which is more joyous? According to lds teaching, being cast out was. Yes, the lds have a silly teaching.

THEY DIDNT SIN. they didn't have enough knowledge to sin. In order for them to sin they have had to have had enough understanding of what is right and what is wrong. They had no knowledge of what was good and what was evil. They never had that knowledge until they partook of the TREE OF KNOWLEGDE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

 

[Rescued One]

THEY DIDNT SIN. they didn't have enough knowledge to sin. In order for them to sin they have had to have had enough understanding of what is right and what is wrong. They had no knowledge of what was good and what was evil. They never had that knowledge until they partook of the TREE OF KNOWLEGDE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

Adam obeyed Satan instead of God. That is sin. His sin brought spiritual death. A mistake wouldn't have brought expulsion from the Garden of Eden:

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.

But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:12, 15, 17–19)

 

[fatboys]

They obeyed Satan instead of God. That is sin. Their sin brought spiritual death. A mistake wouldn't have brought expulsion from the Garden of Eden.

You just don't get it. It was disobedience. It was a transgression. Whether they had enough knowledge or didn't have enough knowledge the consequenc s ate the same.

 

[Rescued One]

You just don't get it. It was disobedience. It was a transgression. Whether they had enough knowledge or didn't have enough knowledge the consequenc s ate the same.

Sin is transgression and transgression of the commandments is sin.

 

[mmksparbud]

THEY DIDNT SIN. they didn't have enough knowledge to sin. In order for them to sin they have had to have had enough understanding of what is right and what is wrong. They had no knowledge of what was good and what was evil. They never had that knowledge until they partook of the TREE OF KNOWLEGDE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

We've gone over this many times. They did not have to know right and wrong---they just had to obey what God told them to do. They knew what "do not eat fruit this tree meant." Your dog does not understand the r4asons for not doing something---but they know what "NO!" means, and they obey, better than Adam and Eve did.

 

[fatboys]

Sin is transgression and transgression of the commandments is sin.

Sin is a transgression. Disobedience is a transgression. If they were innocent because they lacked knowledge or understanding of the consequences whether good or evil it is not a sin. It is a transgression because they disobeyed. Is this really this hard to understand? How could they sin without understanding of good or evil? They couldn't sin. They did disobey.

 

[Rescued One]

Sin is a transgression.

Transgression is sin.

Disobedience is a transgression.

Disobedience to God is sin.

If they were innocent because they lacked knowledge or understanding of the consequences whether good or evil it is not a sin.

If they were innocent, they wouldn't have sinned and they wouldn't have been driven out of the garden. Did God unjustly punish them?

For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:12, 15, 17–19)

It is a transgression because they disobeyed. Is this really this hard to understand? How could they sin without understanding of good or evil? They couldn't sin. They did disobey.

To quote you, "You just don't get it." God doesn't unjustly punish people!

“Will not the judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18:25).

All have sinned including Adam.

 

[mmksparbud]

You do not seem to comprehend what is sin---it is sin to God--what you think of it doesn't matter.
Have you never heard of the saying---ignorance is no excuse? If you break the law, a judge still has to inflict a punishment for the breaking of the law, ignorant of it or not.
God has made provision for sin, even for those made in ignorance. They knew what they should not do, doesn't matter if they did not understand the consequences. They disobeyed a direct command---it is sin. It was not a sin of ignorance. Ignorance is not knowing it is going against God---they knew for they were told not to do it, and knowing that, they still did it. NO is NO. It is no longer ignorance.
Ignorance is not a matter of not knowing the consequences. It is doing wrong. If you are told no, you are not ignorant of the fact you were told no. This isn't complicated--

Lev_4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
Lev_4:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

Lev_4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;
Lev_4:14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

Lev_4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
Lev_4:28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

Num_15:25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
Num_15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

 

[mmksparbud]

Rom_5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all
Rom_5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom_5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
have sinned:

Get your head out from under JS and pay attention to what God says!!!

 

[BigDaddy4]

.

 

[BigDaddy4]

THEY DIDNT SIN. they didn't have enough knowledge to sin. In order for them to sin they have had to have had enough understanding of what is right and what is wrong. They had no knowledge of what was good and what was evil. They never had that knowledge until they partook of the TREE OF KNOWLEGDE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

You can't redefine words to make it fit your theology and expect it to be true. A theology, by the way, that goes against Scripture. Romans 5:12 has already been quoted for you.

You have a choice of whether to believe the Bible (they sinned) or believe your religion (they did not sin). Choose wisely!