LDS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!

[Peter1000]

If we are eternal why then does those left alive at the 2nd coming need to be caught up and "clothed with immortality"? Wouldn't they already have immortality?

It is the spirit that is immortal, but now in the resurrection your flesh and bone body will be caught up and changed to an immortal perfect body. Now your body and spirit will both be immortal and you will be just like Jesus.

 

[mmksparbud]

[Staff edit].

Why would God and Jesus need to have a personal spirit when they are God--and so is the Holy Spirit.
They don't need an inner spirit to guide them. They are God. If they have an inner spirit guiding them, those spirits are of a higher order than they are! They are God! Sorry, but none of this makes any sense and can not for it is not of God.

Jesus can do nothing of himself. Jesus only does those things that he sees his Father do. If Jesus has a body of flesh and bone, so must the Father. Again, Jesus only does those things that he sees his Father do. If Jesus was resurrected and now has a body of flesh and bone, the Father must have gone through the same resurrection process and has the same kind of body as Jesus.

It is scripture, not JS.

[/QUOTE]


That is entirely JS. Please state the book, chapter and verse that states that God the Father went through a resurrection process. A "He must have seen" is speculation. He did not need to see the resurrection process. He had the power already, it was given to Him by His Father---it was a commandment from His Father---He obeyed. If the Father had gone through a resurrection process, the Son would not have been there to see it.

Joh_10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Before the incarnation--God and Jesus were one---totally. After the incarnation, Jesus became human---in His human body He did only what the Father told Him, for He was here to do His bidding and show the world obedience to God. Before, He and God were one so He didn't have to do only what He saw the Father do---it is Jesus that created everything. God the Father was watching Him create.

Do you have a reply to post #292?

 

[mmksparbud]

[Staff edit].

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life
Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life

There are many, many more verses all stating that we are given eternal life. It is the reward He gives us, it is not ours by right of existence. Only the Godhead are eternal and everlasting on their own.
Eternal life is a gift from God to the saved--not to the lost.

 

[Randy777]

[Staff edit].

Jesus lives by the living Father and those that feed on Jesus live by Him as the Father has no end so the One who believes in Jesus will never die.
Only If God can die can Jesus die and we die. Not Possible
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

God formed Jesus's Spirit and Jesus is before all things except God. And God was pleased to have all HIS fullness dwell in His firstborn. I would state that was at Jesus's beginning. No other Jesus is depicted Jesus did not start out as an angel. Hebrews-The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
Same language - will never die Hence eternal life no ending
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus like us has His own Spirit and there is but One Devine Spirit -The Fathers for He is the One true God. Jesus Spirit can't be divine or you would have two Gods. The reason Jesus is the exact image of the wisdom and power of God is that in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell and the one living in Jesus per Jesus is the Father. Because Gods Spirit dwells in Jesus just as that same spirit sent in Jesus's name dwells in a believer and is in a believer by the will of Christ Jesus as Jesus is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Randy777]

[Staff edit].

No where did I read The Father was flesh and blood. It is stated no God was formed before the Father nor will one be formed after Him.
As I pointed out the oneness as Jesus taught is how He and the Father are one. It doesn't state they are of the same substance meaning Bodies.
Is your spirit separate from you?
For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

 

[Randy777]

It is the spirit that is immortal, but now in the resurrection your flesh and bone body will be caught up and changed to an immortal perfect body. Now your body and spirit will both be immortal and you will be just like Jesus.

I am spirit in a tent of a body. Or we long to be clothed with our heavenly bodies. So eternal life in a body is only obtained only through or by Jesus's grace. I don't know the lifespan of spirit of mankind or what nourishes spirit but evidence does suggest the spirit survives the life of the body for extended period of time as Jesus preached to the Spirits in prison those who died in the days of Noah. And tormented and no rest night and day does suggest awareness for those who suffer the 2nd death.

 

[Ironhold]

That's what I'd like to know. We were all happy up there--though apparently too stupid to stay there and needed to come down here to get an education. So Hitler was a good little god before he came down here. The earth is not good for our intelligence.

I think you're reaching with your conclusions.

You see, you're ignoring a number of critical factors, such as:

*free will

*individual personalities

*individual mental and physical states

In Hitler's case, there's reason to believe that he was already somewhat unhinged even before WWI, where he received a disabling injury that left him in the hospital when Germany surrendered; from what I understand, something in him broke when he learned of this and realized that his present state left him unable to act on it.

The post-war period broke him further, as the reparations the Allies forced on Germany left it economically crippled; inflation was so bad that past a certain point the finance ministry didn't even bother cutting the sheets of currency into individual bills as they figured the retailers would do it themselves. One story I heard had it that someone made the mistake of leaving a literal wheelbarrow full of currency sheets unattended; when they returned, they discovered that the wheelbarrow had been stolen... minus the currency sheets, which had been left behind.

When things get that bad, folks get desperate. Extremism starts sounding a lot more rational. Hitler got sucked in by this, and his warped mind soon took all of the hate in and regurgitated it into his philosophies. The fact that he was on drugs didn't exactly help matters.

A very big historical "what-if" involves what would have happened had Hitler been able to launch a successful career as a painter, which is what he was trying to do before everything happened. Yes, painter. A few of his canvasses still survive, and the image of at least one is known to be circulating on the internet.

 

[Jane_Doe]

It is stated no God was formed before the Father nor will one be formed after Him.
As I pointed out the oneness as Jesus taught is how He and the Father are one.

LDS 100% believe that.

 

[mmksparbud]

I think you're reaching with your conclusions.

You see, you're ignoring a number of critical factors, such as:

*free will

*individual personalities

*individual mental and physical states

In Hitler's case, there's reason to believe that he was already somewhat unhinged even before WWI, where he received a disabling injury that left him in the hospital when Germany surrendered; from what I understand, something in him broke when he learned of this and realized that his present state left him unable to act on it.

The post-war period broke him further, as the reparations the Allies forced on Germany left it economically crippled; inflation was so bad that past a certain point the finance ministry didn't even bother cutting the sheets of currency into individual bills as they figured the retailers would do it themselves. One story I heard had it that someone made the mistake of leaving a literal wheelbarrow full of currency sheets unattended; when they returned, they discovered that the wheelbarrow had been stolen... minus the currency sheets, which had been left behind.

When things get that bad, folks get desperate. Extremism starts sounding a lot more rational. Hitler got sucked in by this, and his warped mind soon took all of the hate in and regurgitated it into his philosophies. The fact that he was on drugs didn't exactly help matters.

A very big historical "what-if" involves what would have happened had Hitler been able to launch a successful career as a painter, which is what he was trying to do before everything happened. Yes, painter. A few of his canvasses still survive, and the image of at least one is known to be circulating on the internet.

He was a pre-existing intelligence before coming to earth is what you said you believe. He was given a human body to live in and to learn to obey---I guess nobody can learn up there with God and they have to come down here. So he is up there with god, being a good, but stupid little god in the making and was sent down here to learn to obey----He, along with several billion other intelligences did not do very well. Yes, I know about the paintings---Poor guy, just a misunderstood artist at heart. I take it they can't see us from up there and see what a mess just about all of these intelligences have ended up as. If they could, they would beg to stay just where they are.
It's been several 1000 years now of God sending these pre-existing intelligences down here and most of them have turned into pretty nasty people. You'd think God would have given up sending them down here a long time ago. Is He about run out of these intelligences now and that is why He is coming back to get the few that could figure things out? The rest, according to you guys, will be taught the truth---so, why couldn't they have been taught the truth up there?? Seriously---you say we have this opportunity to lesrn after Jesus returns, so why even bother sending them down here?

 

[Rescued One]

Not quite. The HS has a body of spirit which is matter, but very fine matter. Fine enough that the HS can be in the body of a flesh and blood man and they would be sharing the same place in time and space.

It is true that the HS can only be in 1 place at a time in time and space.

What would be the point of the Holy Ghost entering one man? Man's spirit is fine matter, too, according to Mormonism.

What would be the point of the Holy Ghost entering one man?

 

[BigDaddy4]

There is truly only 1 God. We both assign qualities to Him. 1 of us is wrong and we will not find out about which one is wrong until we go to the other side.

I do not "assign" qualities of God. He has revealed Himself through Scripture and I believe Scripture. You and the lds on the other hand...

You have not, nor can you provide a scripture that show God conversing with 2 people in 2 separate locations at exactly the same time. So to cover yourself, you provided scriptures that support God is everywhere. I say that is more metaprhorical than you wish to believe. I believe God is in 1 place at 1 time, but that His power and authority and light permeate the immensity of space. This concept is supported by scripture.

I provided Scripture, God's Word, that He is everywhere. If one requires proof of that, what does that say about that person's faith? Just because it isn't recorded, doesn't mean it didn't or couldn't happen.

Are you saying that at that exact moment, this same God could also be showing Himself to another group of people half way around the world or even 500 miles away?

God is God and could do whatever He wants to do.

Fortunately, our man saw the 2 in front of him and he conversed with Them. The scriptures support the limitations. For instance, when Jesus was on the earth, there is never an occasion that the scriptures record that he was in 2 places at exactly the same time. Try to find one. If he is God as you profess, and God is everywhere, then Jesus was everywhere, but the scriptures do not give evidence of such behavior.

Unfortunately, your man did not see God, as God is unseen by any man as Scripture says. Jesus, appearing as a man, could only be in one place at a time as a man. However, Jesus, as God, could be in a separate place. Jesus, as God, healed the Centurian's son while Jesus the man was not in the same room or even the house. Jesus, as a man, stood outside Lazarus' grave while Jesus, as God, rose him from the dead from inside the grave.

You have not provided any scripture that supports God is everywhere except in a metaphoric way. No scriptures that shows God speaking to a prophet or group of people in Sinai, and another prophet or group of people in Rome at exactly the same time. Nor have you shown that Jesus was in more than 1 place at a time?

I just did.

 

[Peter1000]

I am spirit in a tent of a body. Or we long to be clothed with our heavenly bodies. So eternal life in a body is only obtained only through or by Jesus's grace. I don't know the lifespan of spirit of mankind or what nourishes spirit but evidence does suggest the spirit survives the life of the body for extended period of time as Jesus preached to the Spirits in prison those who died in the days of Noah. And tormented and no rest night and day does suggest awareness for those who suffer the 2nd death.

Yes, our personal spirit is clothed in our tent body. We do long for this body to be clothed in our heavenly body.

We do know that after we die, our spirit leaves our dead body and goes to either the spirit Paradise, or the Spirit Prison to await the glorious resurrection.
The scriptures give us a very small glimpse that there is life after death for our spirits. You, I would think, with confidence, will be in the Paradise section of the 'spirit world'. From what I understand we will be very busy in the work of the Lord in this spirit world, to prepare for the second coming of Christ on the earth and his 1000 year reign (the millenium).

 

[Peter1000]

What would be the point of the Holy Ghost entering one man? Man's spirit is fine matter, too, according to Mormonism.

What would be the point of the Holy Ghost entering one man?

To witness face to face with your personal spirit that Jesus is the Christ.

 

[Rescued One]

To witness face to face with your personal spirit that Jesus is the Christ.

Then what good is his influence if he can only be in one place at a time?

 

[Peter1000]

I do not "assign" qualities of God. He has revealed Himself through Scripture and I believe Scripture. You and the lds on the other hand...

However you assign qualities to God and Jesus, whether it is by scripture or personal beliefs, we will find out what the truth is only when we pass to the other side. The bible has too many vague and contradictory statements about God and Jesus to know for sure. With the hundreds of translations you can truly come up the God of your making and that is exactly what has happened over the centuries.
Fortunately for LDS JS encountered God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, and so he saw them first-handed and can tell us more than all the books that have been written about God and Jesus since the beginning of the world. So we have an advantage that is very important when talking about God and Jesus and the HS. We now can take that encounter and what JS learned in future encounters and compare those to the bible and it helps us cut through the vagueries and conflicts and come to the knowledge of the truth.

I provided Scripture, God's Word, that He is everywhere. If one requires proof of that, what does that say about that person's faith? Just because it isn't recorded, doesn't mean it didn't or couldn't happen.

You provided a metaphorical scripture about God being everywhere but nothing concrete about how this manifests itself in real time.

Unfortunately, your man did not see God, as God is unseen by any man as Scripture says. Jesus, appearing as a man, could only be in one place at a time as a man. However, Jesus, as God, could be in a separate place. Jesus, as God, healed the Centurian's son while Jesus the man was not in the same room or even the house. Jesus, as a man, stood outside Lazarus' grave while Jesus, as God, rose him from the dead from inside the grave.

This is one of the vagueries about God Himself. You have assigned a quality of invisible to God. You think that you have done that because the scriptures say that God cannot be seen. But you are aware from this forum that there are other conflicting scriptures that God has been seen and many times.

This is where your personal belief comes in and you have chosen, regardless of this conflict to believe God cannot be seen, hence JS is a false prophet.
Of course LDS believe God is not invisible, but chooses to rarely be seen. This belief reconciles all of the scriptures about his invisibility and we know that JS saw both God and Jesus.

Your take on the story of Jesus and the Centurion is interesting. We find this story in Matthew 8. I believe that the centurions servant was healed by the power of Jesus coupled with the faith of the centurion. But there is no verbiage that Jesus was split in two, so that his humanity stayed where he was, but his Godhood went to heal the servant. That would be a stretch to try to fulfill the challenge. This did not happen, according to the scriptures.

Same thing about the story of Lazarus found in John 11. Jesus stands outside the tomb, prays to his God and then pronounced with a loud voice, "Lazarus come forth". And Lazarus did. There is zero indication that Jesus's manhood stood outside the tomb, while his Godhood went into the tomb and raised Lazarus. Again, a stretching of the story to comply with my challenge. But not in the scripture, try again.

 

[Peter1000]

Then what good is his influence if he can only be in one place at a time?

The HS is the 3rd member of the Godhead and his power and authority and light can permeates the immensities of space, and the manifestation of that power and light is that he can witness to a multitude of persons in a multitude of locations at exactly the same time.

 

[Peter1000]

Since it's your opinion that the Holy Spirit can only be in one place at a time, then it should be up to you to answer your question. We have no need to explain that because we do not believe the Holy Spirit can only be in one place at a time.

The real reason you are not answering is you don't know how he does that.

Our answer is that He is the 3rd member of the Godhead, and His power and authority and the light that emminates from Him, can fill the immensities of space. The manifestation of that is He can witness to a multitude of people in a multitude of locations at exactly the same time.

 

[Randy777]

Yes, our personal spirit is clothed in our tent body. We do long for this body to be clothed in our heavenly body.

We do know that after we die, our spirit leaves our dead body and goes to either the spirit Paradise, or the Spirit Prison to await the glorious resurrection.
The scriptures give us a very small glimpse that there is life after death for our spirits. You, I would think, with confidence, will be in the Paradise section of the 'spirit world'. From what I understand we will be very busy in the work of the Lord in this spirit world, to prepare for the second coming of Christ on the earth and his 1000 year reign (the millenium).

The resurrection Jesus spoke of was on the last day where he would send out His angels to gather Hid elect from the ends of the heavens. The resurrection of us all. This was taught and well understood. Also noted it is a bodily resurrection and those saints left alive on earth on that day will be caught up and also clothed with immortality. There are christians noted in the 1st resurrection. Therefore those not raised on that day must be those who suffer.
Those that have been washed and sanctified through faith in Jesus and by the inward circumcision of the Spirit will be with Jesus in paradise until that last day. God does not imprison the saints. The have been washed, justified and sanctified by the blood of Jesus. They are Holy and blameless in Gods sight.

 

[Ironhold]

I guess nobody can learn up there with God and they have to come down here.

If your parents kept you locked inside a room that was lined with bubble wrap, how much would you learn about the rest of the world?

 

[mmksparbud]

If your parents kept you locked inside a room that was lined with bubble wrap, how much would you learn about the rest of the world?

LOL! That's child abuse! There is a whole universe out there---immense---many, many worlds to investigate, many, many, things to see and learn, without sin, where God and His Son are---this is just one sin ridden world down here where Satan keeps trying to devour everyone. Makes absolutely no sense to come down here to learn how to sin. Nothing here I want to know---everything is up there with God and His Son.