Absolutely Free or Not?

[mlqurgw]

Yes, since YOUR way of salvation is not to be found in the bible, you have to explain it. I also noticed you did not respond to what Peter said in Acts 2:38. Did Peter tell them to do nothing?

Whether you agree or not doesn't mean that I must explain every time. I have done so several times and if you had any idea of what I believe you would not need for me to explain. Instead you require that I give detailed definations of each thing I post while you do not do the same. I have read many things you have posted and have at least some idea of where you are coming from. You need not explain in detail because of this. You do not extend me the same courtesy? I did respond to Acts 2:38 in my statement. It just wasn't directly as you may have wished.

Again, how do you objectively know Christ made you to see? What is special about you that He let you 'see' while not letting many others 'see'?

I objectively know because I believe. The thing that makes me special is that God in perfect sovereignty chose to reveal His Son in me. I am no different from anyone else in myself. I am probably worse than most. You have no idea what I was before God gave me life in Christ. He saved me because He chose me in Christ and loved me in Christ before the foundation of the world. I know He did it because I wouldn't have.

As Paul said, all have sinned. Is the "elect" capable of sinning?

I was and am a sinner.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Again, how do you objectively know Christ made you to see?

Does the Holy Spirit indwell someone before they have been saved by water baptism?

Yes, or no?

 

[jmacvols]

Here is the CoC false, legalistic formula shot all to hell;

Acts 10;

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.


And they are New Testament believers, after the Resurrection of Christ, so the lame excuse of them being under the OT does not hold water, which it doesn't hold water concerning the thief on the Cross either, but here we have believers who have the "gift of the Holy Spirit" BEFORE they have ever come close to water baptism.

So much for the CoC legalistic formula.

In Acts 11, Peter has to deal with the Jews in Jerusalem as to why he went to the Gentiles. In Acts 11:4 Peter expounds BY ORDER the events as they occur. In verse 14 Peter was to tell Cornelius WORDS wherby he would be saved. Notice that this verse does not say Cornelius would be saved by being baptized with the Holy Spirit, the verse shows he would not be saved until Peter told him the WORDS. In verse 15 as Peter BEGAN to speak the WORDS, the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius. So BEFORE Peter told Cornelius the WORDS whereby he would be saved, the Holy Ghost fell on him. Therefore Cornelius had not yet heard the WORDS he would be saved by ie he was still in a lost condition when the Holy Ghost fell on him. It would therefore be AFTER the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius that Peter told him the WORDS by whereby Cornelius would be saved, and those WORDS are found in Acts 10:47,48. Peter commanded Cornelius to be water baptized in the name of the Lord, just like those in Acts 2:38. This is why Peter says in Acts 15:11 that we (Jews) shall be saved even as they (Gentiles). So Jew and Gentile are saved alike, by water baptism in the name of the Lord. The purpose of the Holy Ghost falling upon Cornelius was to show the Jews that God accepted the Gentiles, that the Gentiles had the same right to salvation as the Jews, Acts 11:18.


The thief did live under the OT law, hence he is not an example of NT salvation. Also, no one can prove that the thief had never been baptized.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

In Acts 11, Peter has to deal with the Jews in Jerusalem as to why he went to the Gentiles. In Acts 11:4 Peter expounds BY ORDER the events as they occur. In verse 14 Peter was to tell Cornelius WORDS wherby he would be saved. Notice that this verse does not say Cornelius would be saved by being baptized with the Holy Spirit, the verse shows he would not be saved until Peter told him the WORDS. In verse 15 as Peter BEGAN to speak the WORDS, the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius. So BEFORE Peter told Cornelius the WORDS whereby he would be saved, the Holy Ghost fell on him. Therefore Cornelius had not yet heard the WORDS he would be saved by ie he was still in a lost condition when the Holy Ghost fell on him. It would therefore be AFTER the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius that Peter told him the WORDS by whereby Cornelius would be saved, and those WORDS are found in Acts 10:47,48. Peter commanded Cornelius to be water baptized in the name of the Lord, just like those in Acts 2:38. This is why Peter says in Acts 15:11 that we (Jews) shall be saved even as they (Gentiles). So Jew and Gentile are saved alike, by water baptism in the name of the Lord. The purpose of the Holy Ghost falling upon Cornelius was to show the Jews that God accepted the Gentiles, that the Gentiles had the same right to salvation as the Jews, Acts 11:18.

Can someone be indwelt by the Holy Spirit before water baptism?

Yes or no?

The thief did live under the OT law, hence he is not an example of NT salvation. Also, no one can prove that the thief had never been baptized.

OT salvation is no different from NT salvation.

Once again you are preaching the heresy of two different means of salvation, which is not Biblical, and is anti-Christian.

 

[Outrider]

jmacvols,

"Baptism" is not always referring to the ordinance (sacrament) in the New Testament. Sometimes it is referring to the thing signified, i.e. regeneration or the cleansing from sin. Baptism does not regenerate, it points to the blood of Christ.

 

[mlqurgw]

He's not going to answer your simple question. In the past, I've found both of these fellows to be intellectually dishonest and good at deflecting and avoidance by not answering and presenting rabbit trails.

Clearly they are blind.

Perhaps they are politicians instead of theologians? I once heard of a preacher who wondered what his son was going to be when he grew up. He put a Bottle of Jack Danials, a fifty dollor bill and a Bible on the table where his son would find it when he got home. He said to himself; If he takes the Jack Danials he will be a drunk. If he takes the fifty dollor bill he will be a buisnessman. If he takes the Bible he will be a preacher just like his dad. The son came home and looked at the items and reached over and tokk the whiskey and drank a huge draft, picked up the fifty and put it in his pocket and then took the Bible and stuck it under his arm. The father was distraught. The only words he could muster were OH No! He is going to be a politician!

 

[holdon]

This is the last time I will ask. Yes or no, does God count your faith as righteousness without an actual righteousness being worked out?

Absolutely.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

In Acts 11, Peter has to deal with the Jews in Jerusalem as to why he went to the Gentiles. In Acts 11:4 Peter expounds BY ORDER the events as they occur. In verse 14 Peter was to tell Cornelius WORDS wherby he would be saved. Notice that this verse does not say Cornelius would be saved by being baptized with the Holy Spirit, the verse shows he would not be saved until Peter told him the WORDS. In verse 15 as Peter BEGAN to speak the WORDS, the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius. So BEFORE Peter told Cornelius the WORDS whereby he would be saved, the Holy Ghost fell on him. Therefore Cornelius had not yet heard the WORDS he would be saved by ie he was still in a lost condition when the Holy Ghost fell on him. It would therefore be AFTER the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius that Peter told him the WORDS by whereby Cornelius would be saved, and those WORDS are found in Acts 10:47,48. Peter commanded Cornelius to be water baptized in the name of the Lord, just like those in Acts 2:38. This is why Peter says in Acts 15:11 that we (Jews) shall be saved even as they (Gentiles). So Jew and Gentile are saved alike, by water baptism in the name of the Lord. The purpose of the Holy Ghost falling upon Cornelius was to show the Jews that God accepted the Gentiles, that the Gentiles had the same right to salvation as the Jews, Acts 11:18.

Once again, you avoid the fact that gentiles were indwelt by the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation.

2 Corinthians 1:21-23

21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.





Ephesians 1;

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.



Ephesians 4;

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.



You have been deceived and lied to by the heretical sect, CoC.

The seal of the Holy Spirit is the seal of Salvation.


According to the false teaching of the CoC sect, the Holy Spirit should not indwell(seal) until after water baptism.

But the CoC is heretical and seeks to place people under the bondage of the works of self righteousness.

 

[Outrider]

The thief on the cross: That great theologian who slew baptismal regeneration from the very beginning.

 

[holdon]

I'm perfectly calm. I'm feeling no emotions at this moment. My post was written with the same kind of objectivity as all the rest.

The Bible clearly teaches that saving faith is given to us. Ephes. 2:8 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

The antecedent of "it" is "grace through faith". Therefore, "grace through faith" is a gift of God. Simple.

No it's not. I remember you being deficient on grammar: here is another example. Anyway this has been addressed so many times on this forum that you would only have to go back and look at that discussion.

 

[holdon]

What sect or denomination do you belong to?

Not your's I'm afraid...

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Not your's I'm afraid...

Which one then?

 

[holdon]

The righteousness of God, is directed to and laid upon the believer, just as Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

Maybe you have not been following the discussion. The question is: "is Christ's righteousness, as something obtained during His life here on earth, imputed to us".

I say it's not. There is no Scripture saying that.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Perhaps they are politicians instead of theologians? I once heard of a preacher who wondered what his son was going to be when he grew up. He put a Bottle of Jack Danials, a fifty dollor bill and a Bible on the table where his son would find it when he got home. He said to himself; If he takes the Jack Danials he will be a drunk. If he takes the fifty dollor bill he will be a buisnessman. If he takes the Bible he will be a preacher just like his dad. The son came home and looked at the items and reached over and tokk the whiskey and drank a huge draft, picked up the fifty and put it in his pocket and then took the Bible and stuck it under his arm. The father was distraught. The only words he could muster were OH No! He is going to be a politician!

 

[mlqurgw]

Absolutely.

Thank you for finally answering. It wasn't that difficult was it? Now I will give you the Scriptures for my view. It must be later though because I have to get ready for work soon. I will try to do it later tonight or tomorrow. I also will resond to your answer then if I may.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Maybe you have not been following the discussion. The question is: "is Christ's righteousness, as something obtained during His life here on earth, imputed to us".

I say it's not. There is no Scripture saying that.

No, actually Romans 3:21-22 says precisely that.

God's righteousness(Christ is God in your religion, right?) is directed towards and upon the believer, which is imputation. It is a righteousness that does not come from the believer, but from God.

Whether you can face the truth of that fact or not does not negate the truth of God's imputed righteousness.

 

[holdon]

Thank you for finally answering. It wasn't that difficult was it? Now I will give you the Scriptures for my view. It must be later though because I have to get ready for work soon. I will try to do it later tonight or tomorrow. I also will resond to your answer then if I may.

Read better next time. I answered this in post #243 already....

 

[holdon]

No, actually Romans 3:21-22 says precisely that.

God's righteousness(Christ is God in your religion, right?) is directed towards and upon the believer, which is imputation. It is a righteousness that does not come from the believer, but from God.

Whether you can face the truth of that fact or not does not negate the truth of God's imputed righteousness.

No, no, you're skirting the issue. I'm not surprised. Because you cannot find a single Scripture saying that Christ's righteousness was imputed to us.....

 

[Outrider]

"This is the last time I will ask. Yes or no, does God count your faith as righteousness without an actual righteousness being worked out?"

Absolutely.

 

[mlqurgw]

Read better next time. I answered this in post #243 already....

Your sarcasm is offensive. I have not been discourteous to you that I know of. You did not answer in that post but only gave a Scripture reference which could be taken a myriad of ways. If we are to continue I ask that you at least curb your hostility as much as possible. If you have read into anything I have said contentiousness then I assure it was unintended.