Absolutely Free or Not?

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

No, no, you're skirting the issue. I'm not surprised. Because you cannot find a single Scripture saying that Christ's righteousness was imputed to us.....

What does, "imputed" or "imputation" mean to you?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Not your's I'm afraid...

Why are you afraid to tell us your church denomination or sect?

I have no problem with telling anyone I am Presbyterian of the Presbyterian Church in America(PCA), why are you afraid to tell us yours?

 

[holdon]

What does, "imputed" or "imputation" mean to you?

Well, that's a good question. What do you think it means?

I think imputed simply means: considered to be, held for, esteemed to be.

 

[jmacvols]

Whether you agree or not doesn't mean that I must explain every time. I have done so several times and if you had any idea of what I believe you would not need for me to explain. Instead you require that I give detailed definations of each thing I post while you do not do the same. I have read many things you have posted and have at least some idea of where you are coming from. You need not explain in detail because of this. You do not extend me the same courtesy? I did respond to Acts 2:38 in my statement. It just wasn't directly as you may have wished.

You responded to what Peter said in Acts 2:38 in post #236?

I objectively know because I believe. The thing that makes me special is that God in perfect sovereignty chose to reveal His Son in me. I am no different from anyone else in myself. I am probably worse than most. You have no idea what I was before God gave me life in Christ. He saved me because He chose me in Christ and loved me in Christ before the foundation of the world. I know He did it because I wouldn't have.

Saul/Paul "objectively" knew he was doing God's will as he went about persecuting Christians. Many have a zeal of God but not according to knowledge. I don't want to burst your bubble, but you're no more special than anyone else, if God would 'choose' you, He would choose everyone else. God is not a respecter of person, he would not respect you and 'save' you while letting others be lost.

 

[jmacvols]

Does the Holy Spirit indwell someone before they have been saved by water baptism?

Yes, or no?

The Holy Ghost came upon Cornelius before he was baptized. There are other instances in the bible of the Holy Ghost coming upon someone that was not a 'saved' indivdual.

 

[jmacvols]

Can someone be indwelt by the Holy Spirit before water baptism?

Yes or no?

Answered above in prior post to you.

OT salvation is no different from NT salvation.

Another area you are in error on.

 

[jmacvols]

jmacvols,

"Baptism" is not always referring to the ordinance (sacrament) in the New Testament. Sometimes it is referring to the thing signified, i.e. regeneration or the cleansing from sin. Baptism does not regenerate, it points to the blood of Christ.

I understand the bible speaks of 6 or 7 kinds of baptisms. But the baptism I refer to is the ONE baptism of Eph 4:5, the baptism of the great comission--water baptism for remission of sins. If Christ's blood washes away sins, Rev 1:5, and baptism is for the remission of sins, Acts 2:38, then it must be in water baptism where one's sins are washed away. Jesus shed his blood in His death, and one is baptized into His death, Rom 6:3-5, so one's sins are washed away by Christ's blood in baptism.

 

[jmacvols]

Once again, you avoid the fact that gentiles were indwelt by the Holy Spirit before they were water baptized.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation.

2 Corinthians 1:21-23

21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.





Ephesians 1;

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.



Ephesians 4;

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.



You have been deceived and lied to by the heretical sect, CoC.

The seal of the Holy Spirit is the seal of Salvation.


According to the false teaching of the CoC sect, the Holy Spirit should not indwell(seal) until after water baptism.

But the CoC is heretical and seeks to place people under the bondage of the works of self righteousness.

You're completely ignoring the order of events Peter gave in Acts 11.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Answered above in prior post to you.

No, you deflected again.

Yes or no?

Another area you are in error on.

What then is the difference?

How were people in the OT saved?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

You're completely ignoring the order of events Peter gave in Acts 11.

No, you are ignoring the fact that in Acts 10, which preceeds Acts 11 there were believers who were sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit before water baptism.

And you do so because it blows your sect's heretical formula to hell.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

What does, "imputed" or "imputation" mean to you?

Well, that's a good question. What do you think it means?

I think imputed simply means: considered to be, held for, esteemed to be.

Wrong definition.

Imputed means to have something credited to someone, or attributed to.

Merriam-Websters: "to credit to a person or a cause"

 

[Outrider]

I don't want to burst your bubble, but you're no more special than anyone else, if God would 'choose' you, He would choose everyone else. God is not a respecter of person, he would not respect you and 'save' you while letting others be lost.

How do you square that statement with this:

Romans 9:13-21 (ESV)
As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" [20] But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" [21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

As cited with multiple passages, only the regenerated believer is sealed, given the gift of the indwelling Presence of the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who denies that distorts the Scriptures to their own destruction.

In Acts 10, there are believers who are sealed with the indwelling Presence of the Holy Spirit before they are water baptized, which makes the formula and doctrine of water baptism regeneration of the heretical sect of the CoC a false doctrine.

 

[jmacvols]

No, you are ignoring the fact that in Acts 10, which preceeds Acts 11 there were believers who were sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit before water baptism.

And you do so because it blows your sect's heretical formula to hell.

What verse in Acts 10 says they were sealed by the HS? None, for the purpose of God giving Cornelius the HS was to show the Jews that He had granted repentance unto life to the Gentiles. Again, you ignore that Peter would tell Cornelius words whereby Cornelius would be saved, and those words were not told Cornelius until after the HS fell upon him. Hence Cornelius was still in a lost state when the HS fell upon him.

Has the Holy Spirit come upon you like it did Cornelius? the apostles?

 

[holdon]

What does, "imputed" or "imputation" mean to you?




Wrong definition.

Imputed means to have something credited to someone, or attributed to.

Merriam-Websters: "to credit to a person or a cause"

In the bible it is not so. It is "logizomai" in Greek. It is simply "thought to be", "suppose", "consider".

Here are all the instances in the NT.


elogizomhn
1 Cor 13:11

elogizonto
Mark 11:31

elogisqhmen
Rom 8:36

elogisqh
Mark 15:28, Luke 22:37, Rom 4:3, Rom 4:9, Rom 4:10, Rom 4:22, Rom 4:23, Gal 3:6, Jam 2:23

logizesqai
Rom 4:24

logizesqe
Rom 6:11, Php 4:8

logizesqw
1 Cor 4:1, 2 Cor 10:7, 2 Cor 10:11

logizetai
Rom 4:4, Rom 4:5, Rom 4:6, Rom 9:8, 1 Cor 13:5

logizh
Rom 2:3

logizomai
Rom 8:18, 2 Cor 10:2, 2 Cor 11:5, Php 3:13, 1 Pe 5:12

logizomeqa
Rom 3:28

logizomenoV
2 Cor 5:19

logizomenouV
2 Cor 10:2

logizomenw
Rom 14:14

logisamenoV
Heb 11:19

logisasqai
2 Cor 3:5

logishtai
Rom 4:8, 2 Cor 12:6

logisqeih
2 Ti 4:16

logisqhnai
Acts 19:27, Rom 4:11 logisqhsetai
Rom 2:26

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I think imputed simply means: considered to be, held for, esteemed to be.

Imputed means to be credited with something.

Now, with the correct definition, lets look at Romans 3:21-22.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe.

The context is God's righteousness, which is a righteousness apart from the Law, is directed "to all" from God the source of genuine righteousness and "on all" who believe.

God's righteousness is laid upon or credited to those who believe. That is imputation.

 

[jmacvols]

How do you square that statement with this:

Romans 9:13-21 (ESV)
As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" [20] But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" [21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

Rom 9 shows God makes choices based on man's obedience.

God knew Jacob would obey whereas Esau would not.

God gave Pharaoh, much like Nebuchadnezzar, the chance to obey Him and when Pharaoh chose to disobey, he was punished.

From Jeremiah 18, we see the clay is not passive, it depends on the clays behaviour as to how it is formed.

 

[holdon]

Imputed means to be credited with something.

Now, with the correct definition, lets look at Romans 3:21-22.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe.

The context is God's righteousness, which is a righteousness apart from the Law, is directed "to all" from God the source of genuine righteousness and "on all" who believe.

God's righteousness is laid upon or credited to those who believe. That is imputation.

See my previous post. You are wrong.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

What verse in Acts 10 says they were sealed by the HS? None, for the purpose of God giving Cornelius the HS was to show the Jews that He had granted repentance unto life to the Gentiles. Again, you ignore that Peter would tell Cornelius words whereby Cornelius would be saved, and those words were not told Cornelius until after the HS fell upon him. Hence Cornelius was still in a lost state when the HS fell upon him.

Has the Holy Spirit come upon you like it did Cornelius? the apostles?

No, there was an entire group who were speaking in tongues and praising God, which was the result of the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10.

Only believers are given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And they were given the gift of the Holy Spirit before being water baptized.

You have been deceived.

 

[Outrider]

I understand the bible speaks of 6 or 7 kinds of baptisms.

I'm glad you do. I wasn't referring to Old Testament water ablutions, though.

But the baptism I refer to is the ONE baptism of Eph 4:5, the baptism of the great comission--water baptism for remission of sins.

If Eph. 4:5 were referring to the sacrament of baptism why doesn't it list "one Lord's Supper" as well? The "one baptism" is not "water baptism". John mentions three baptisms, one of water, one of the Holy Spirit and one of fire. In Mark 1:8, John makes a distinctions between baptisms saying, "I have baptized you with water, but he [Jesus]will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." I would say that this Baptism of the Holy Spirit or Baptism into
Christ Jesus (Romans 6:3) is a more real and saving baptism than any sprinkling or emersing in water by men. In fact, if you'll examine all of the passages on baptism and not just the one or two that suit your grid I'll think you'll be drawn to the conclusion that Christ instituted water baptism as a sign and seal of the One Baptism of salvation. As for the baptism of the Great Commission, that is water baptism. Pay attention to who is doing the Baptizing to destinguish between the sign and the signified. If men are baptizing, it is the sign. If Christ or the Holy Spirit is doing the baptizing, it is the signified, the thing water baptism is pointing to, which is cleansing from sin.

If Christ's blood washes away sins, Rev 1:5, and baptism is for the remission of sins, Acts 2:38, then it must be in water baptism where one's sins are washed away. Jesus shed his blood in His death, and one is baptized into His death, Rom 6:3-5, so one's sins are washed away by Christ's blood in baptism.

There is no blood in the baptismal font. Just water. And since, as you pointed out, Christ's blood washes away sins, then water baptism is not the thing that does the job, but it is a sign pointing toward the blood.