Absolutely Free or Not?

[mlqurgw]

Justified before the foundation of the world? Where do you get that from?
Justified when Christ died and rose again? Where do you get that from?

I will not answer any more of your questions until you actually answer mine.

 

[holdon]

There is no Scripture that teaches that a man is saved by his own faith alone.

You're abandoning reformed theology I see. It makes me wonder. So, what else besides man's faith saves him?

 

[Outrider]

Romans 4:5 "his faith is reckoned as righteousness". Whose faith is that? It says it right there: his faith.

It his faith once its been given to him. Otherwise you've got a major doctrine of the Bible problem on your hands, my friend. "There is none righteous, no not one." The faith we were born with is unrighteous and cannot be counted as righteous. God is not stupid and he is not a liar. He does not call righteous what is unrighteous. That is wickedness and God is not wicked.

 

[holdon]

It his faith once its been given to him. Otherwise you've got a major doctrine of the Bible problem on your hands, my friend. "There is none righteous, no not one." The faith we were born with is unrighteous and cannot be counted as righteous. God is not stupid and he is not a liar. He does not call righteous what is unrighteous. That is wickedness and God is not wicked.

Calm down. You're just wrong. The bible doesn't teach that faith needs to be given to you. It doesn't teach that we were born with a faith and that it is unrighteous.

 

[holdon]

I will not answer any more of your questions until you actually answer mine.

You can say all you want. I am just asking you to back it up with Scripture. Apparently you can't.

 

[mlqurgw]

You can say all you want. I am just asking you to back it up with Scripture. Apparently you can't.

I can and will once you simply respond to what I asked. You are doing exactly as I said you would do if I answered first. Can you give a direct answer or will it cause your assertions to be proven false? I think you do not answer because you cannot. If you will not then my discussion with you is done.

 

[holdon]

I can and will once you simply respond to what I asked. You are doing exactly as I said you would do if I answered first. Can you give a direct answer or will it cause your assertions to be proven false? I think you do not answer because you cannot. If you will not then my discussion with you is done.

Just go back and read my answers. Then tell me what you're still missing. I don't know what answers you're still looking for.

 

[mlqurgw]

Just go back and read my answers. Then tell me what you're still missing. I don't know what answers you're still looking for.

This is the last time I will ask. Yes or no, does God count your faith as righteousness without an actual righteousness being worked out?

 

[Outrider]

Calm down. You're just wrong. The bible doesn't teach that faith needs to be given to you. It doesn't teach that we were born with a faith and that it is unrighteous.

I'm perfectly calm. I'm feeling no emotions at this moment. My post was written with the same kind of objectivity as all the rest.

The Bible clearly teaches that saving faith is given to us. Ephes. 2:8 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

The antecedent of "it" is "grace through faith". Therefore, "grace through faith" is a gift of God. Simple.

The Bible doesn't have to teach that we are born with faith. We are human and we know that we have faith and have had faith since we were born. But that faith we are born with is polluted with sin just like every other part of man. That "natural faith" will not believe in Christ. A faith must be created in us through the Word of God, by the preaching of the Gospel.

So, God will not call unrighteous faith righteousness. To do so would be wickedness.
Isaiah 5:20 (ESV)
Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter!

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Christ put the "formula" there, not me. Belief AND be baptized shall be saved. It is simplistic, straight-forward and undeniable.

No, there is no formula. If there was a strict formula, then those believers in Acts 10 would not have been given the gift of indwelling the Holy Spirit before being water baptized.

You have been deceived into legalism by the CoC.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Just go back and read my answers. Then tell me what you're still missing. I don't know what answers you're still looking for.

What sect or denomination do you belong to?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Once again your misunderstanding of the Scriptures shines out like a supernova, for Isaiah is addressing the wickedness of "all the nations", and is describing the state of all humanity, just as Paul does in Romans 2 quoting the Psalmists and Prophets.




No. First note that John wrote "I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth." Here is obedience and it is not counted as 'filthy rags', but joy.

For my times sake:

http://www.nkcofc.com/Tracts/Filthy%20Rags.htm

Once again you miss the context of both passages.

Isaiah is speaking of the condition of the unregenerate.

John is speaking of the regenerate.

But also, even the regenerate has no righteousness of his own that is good enough to earn salvation. Which is where you are also deceived. You can do nothing to earn salvation.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Why try to align me with Catholicism? I told you I disagree with them as I do with Calvinism? Catholics idea of baptism is different from what I believe. Example, they baptized infants, which I do not believe in.

I'm not aligning you with Roman Catholicism, just making the observation of the irony of a heretical sect like the CoC that is so anti-catholic shares so many errors with the RCC.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

You are are avoiding the question.

Is the Gospel spiritual?

Is the Gospel spiritually discerned?

Is the Gospel a "thing of God"?

Yes or no?

What do YOU mean by 'spiritual', by 'spiritually discern', and 'thing'?

Do we have the gospel in a written form?
If one has reading skills, can they read it?
Can they understand it like the Ephesians?

I'll give you this much, you are very good at deflecting and avoiding.

You cannot give a simple yes or no answer because the answer will destroy the false teaching of the CoC sect.

Yet Paul and other men were not uninspired like me, they were able to discern the revelations of the Holy Spirit about God. They then wrote them down for us uninspired folks so that we can understand.

The 1 Corinthians passage is not, in context, addressing inspiration of Scripture.

What it is addressing is the condition of the unregenerate(natural) man and his inability to understand the Gospel apart from the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[mlqurgw]

AwC said; The 1 Corinthians passage is not, in context, addressing inspiration of Scripture.

What it is addressing is the condition of the unregenerate(natural) man and his inability to understand the Gospel apart from the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

Exactly! I am reminded of a young college student who took my daughter out because she defended the truth of God without compromise in her school. Of course he thought she was unconverted and sought to convert her. She simply gave him the Scriptures and God opened his eyes and converted him. He later told me that it was as if someone had stolen his Bible and gave him a new one. The things he now saw in the Scriptures were completely new to him.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

No, he can't answer, because he sees clearly that the righeousness that justifies us is not ours, but is given to us (bestowed, imputed, counted to) and that, being not our own, must be Christ's...just as the Scripture clearly teaches. He sees that he is wrong, so he quotes partial Scripture without interpretation as a dodge because the context those Scriptures are couched in back up imputation to the hilt.

BINGO

He even quotes part of a passage in Romans that describes imputed righteousness;

So, where do we get righeousness from? And how?

Romans 3:22 "righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ towards all, and upon all those who believe"

The righteousness of God, is directed to and laid upon the believer, just as Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

But as a contrarian, holdon will not admit what Scripture plainly says, even in a passage he quotes.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Exactly! I am reminded of a young college student who took my daughter out because she defended the truth of God without compromise in her school. Of course he thought she was unconverted and sought to convert her. She simply gave him the Scriptures and God opened his eyes and converted him. He later told me that it was as if someone had stolen his Bible and gave him a new one. The things he now saw in the Scriptures were completely new to him.

I had a very simliar experience 11 years ago.

When the Holy Spirit gave me life, the Bible I had been reading from childhood suddenly made perfect sense, whereas before as an unregenerate, while there were some things intellectually I could grasp, the Gospel I did not, but then it made absolutely perfect sense.

Soli Deo Gloria

 

[jmacvols]

Do I really need to explain the entire doctrine of salvation in and by Christ in every response I give on these boards?

Yes, since YOUR way of salvation is not to be found in the bible, you have to explain it. I also noticed you did not respond to what Peter said in Acts 2:38. Did Peter tell them to do nothing?

I will say this one more time. I willingly chose Christ because He first made me see my need of Him. He first gave me eyes and a heart to believe. I heard the Gospel preached all my life but was unregenerate and inwardly rebellious in every thought. Once He opened my eyes and gave me ears to hear I believed and was baptized. It was His work in me and for me that I neither could or would do for myself that made the difference. He conquered me by His Word and then comforted me by Christ. I received life passively and believed actively. Faith is simply relying on Christ for all. It is resting in Him not in ourselves. It is impossible for a man to give up his self-righteousness and do nothing but that is what faith is. Once we have faith then we do, realizing even then that all we do is mixed with sin. Now that I trust Christ alone I need not look to myself at all. That is where the peace that passes understanding comes from. Resting in Christ and not in my obedience. Looking to Him for all the blessings of God and all my acceptance with God. Christ is all.

Again, how do you objectively know Christ made you to see? What is special about you that He let you 'see' while not letting many others 'see'?

Is your obedience without sin?

As Paul said, all have sinned. Is the "elect" capable of sinning?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

You have not given those Scriptures. Because there are none that say that Christ's righteous life is imputed to us.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe.(Romans 3:21-22)

Who's righteousness? The righteousness of God, God's righteousness!

God is the source, "to all", moving from God to the believer, "upon all", God's righteousness is laid upon(imputed) the believer.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I also noticed you....

I've noticed that you have avoided the Acts 10 believers who were indwelt with the Presence of the Holy Spirit before water baptism, which makes your formula nothing but a legalistic, anti-biblical formula that distorts the truth.