MrAnderson9

Helping You Achieve Perfetcion
Sep 28, 2017
110
23
40
North Carolina
✟1,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The universe is time based showing progression from one moment to the next it allows us to see that the universe does in fact have a starting point.. and with this starting point it shows is that the universe could not be responsible for itself... for it would not be able to initiate its own beginning nor would it be able to create itself.

If time didn't exist then our physical world could not exist either seeing that time appears to be the measure of progression of physical objects.. time allows movement.. change.. progression etc for a physical world.. without time a physical world would have no progression and be stuck at 1 single moment..

God " The Intelligent Force that everything extends from" exists in Eternity.. outside of time.. This explains why hes sees our existence all at once.. knowing the beginning and the ending .. because we live linear in the physical world while "He" sees the entire beginning and end all at once. Picture a ruler.. we live from inch to inch starting at 0.. while God sees the entire ruler all at once.

Infinity does not exist in the physical.. we are progressing now which is evidence of a initial starting point.. because without an initial starting point in time.. there is no reference for each moment following..

This is a lot to grasp and it definitely leads further... but just wanted to start here with a basic interpretation of how I view Creation.. and the reason why.. feel free to share thoughts hopefully this sparks some interesting discussion..
 

Obliquinaut

Сделайте Америку прекрасной
Jun 30, 2017
2,091
1,635
58
Washington
✟35,334.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
This sounds like Anselm's "Prime Mover" (First Uncaused Cause) argument.

There are the obvious responses like: "Why is God outside space and time?" It doesn't answer any questions (let along prove anything) other than to propose that there is something that doesn't follow the same rules you have laid down for the rest of the universe. Special pleading.
 
Upvote 0

MrAnderson9

Helping You Achieve Perfetcion
Sep 28, 2017
110
23
40
North Carolina
✟1,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
This sounds like Anselm's "Prime Mover" (First Uncaused Cause) argument.

There are the obvious responses like: "Why is God outside space and time?" It doesn't answer any questions (let along prove anything) other than to propose that there is something that doesn't follow the same rules you have laid down for the rest of the universe. Special pleading.
Not quite..

I don't see a logical means for a physical world subject to time to exist without a realm that isn't subject to time.. Eternity.. and with us being here and alive.. I think that is proof that "something" didn't require a beginning.. because that would put us in an endless loop of who created who.. so something obviously required no creation.. and with this world being subject to time.. and progression I'm inclined to believe that our universe exists inside of eternity.
 
Upvote 0

Obliquinaut

Сделайте Америку прекрасной
Jun 30, 2017
2,091
1,635
58
Washington
✟35,334.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Not quite..

I don't see a logical means for a physical world subject to time to exist without a realm that isn't subject to time.. Eternity.. and with us being here and alive.. I think that is proof that "something" didn't require a beginning.. because that would put us in an endless loop of who created who.. so something obviously required no creation.. and with this world being subject to time.. and progression I'm inclined to believe that our universe exists inside of eternity.

How does your proposal of "God" explain anything more than say M-theory in which universes come into being because of "branes" colliding giving birth to universes? (Centre for Theoretical Cosmology: The Origins of the Universe: M-theory)
 
Upvote 0

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,350
Frozen North
✟320,261.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
The universe is time based showing progression from one moment to the next it allows us to see that the universe does in fact have a starting point.. and with this starting point it shows is that the universe could not be responsible for itself...

Can you demonstrate this premise, particularly the latter point above? Because without demonstrating the premise, the argument isn't proved. It's just speculative.

If time didn't exist then our physical world could not exist either seeing that time appears to be the measure of progression of physical objects.. time allows movement.. change.. progression etc for a physical world.. without time a physical world would have no progression and be stuck at 1 single moment..

This reads like a purely classical interpretation of our reality. However, classical physics as we know it breaks down sub-Planck length/time.

How good is your understanding of quantum mechanics?

God " The Intelligent Force that everything extends from" exists in Eternity.. outside of time.. This explains why hes sees our existence all at once.. knowing the beginning and the ending .. because we live linear in the physical world while "He" sees the entire beginning and end all at once. Picture a ruler.. we live from inch to inch starting at 0.. while God sees the entire ruler all at once.

This is all speculative.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

MrAnderson9

Helping You Achieve Perfetcion
Sep 28, 2017
110
23
40
North Carolina
✟1,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
How does your proposal of "God" explain anything more than say M-theory in which universes come into being because of "branes" colliding giving birth to universes? (Centre for Theoretical Cosmology: The Origins of the Universe: M-theory)
Because everything else requires defining.. I picture creation as an empty slate.. a true nothingness in our physical world. And I also don't picture a traditional "God" like human figure that has all the properties of men and women.

I define "God" as the "Creative Force that everything extends from" . I see a God that Created life forms.. that require other life energy of other life forms to sustain themselves.. this doesn't quite fit the narrative of the biblical God.. even though this is the reality. Why would God.. create life.. and then require life forms to eat other life forms for survival?

I also came to the conclusion that you can't quantify life.. you can't put a quantity on life.. you cant state that a human life is of a higher quantity than an ant life.. neither form of "life" is subject to the quantity of the physical body that contains it.. So to devalue life to the point of creating a food chain doesn't in my opinion reflect the traditional "God" we were taught to believe in. Life is life.. regardless of what contains it.
 
Upvote 0

Obliquinaut

Сделайте Америку прекрасной
Jun 30, 2017
2,091
1,635
58
Washington
✟35,334.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Because everything else requires defining..

But God doesn't? God doesn't require a beginning because he's God. EVERYTHING ELSE requires a beginning but not God because he's God.

I define "God" as the "Creative Force that everything extends from" .

But that isn't sufficient to define God. God ALSO has to:

1. Have as His favorite set of humans a small tribe of people who existed in the early Middle east
2. Have manifested himself as a man about 2000 years ago in Palestine with the express intent of having himself sacrificed to himself to atone mankind to him and forgive their sins (a very specific person)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

MrAnderson9

Helping You Achieve Perfetcion
Sep 28, 2017
110
23
40
North Carolina
✟1,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Can you demonstrate this premise, particularly the latter point above? Because without demonstrating the premise, the argument isn't proved. It's just speculative.



This reads like a purely classical interpretation of our reality. However, classical physics as we know it breaks down sub-Planck length/time.



This is all speculative.
1. We are able to progress at different points in time.. and this progression can be calculated equally for all objects in existence.. meaning that at some point there was a reference from which to make each addition point.

meaning that in order for point C to exist.. there has to be point A.. the intial point to serve as the reference.. each point in existence.. is distinguished from other points via it's relation to the initial point. You can't progress. without having a point to progress from.. which is why I also state that infinity doesn't exist in our physical world.. because every point.. would be the same in reference to every other point.. causing a timeless progression less environment for physical objects.
 
Upvote 0

MrAnderson9

Helping You Achieve Perfetcion
Sep 28, 2017
110
23
40
North Carolina
✟1,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
But God doesn't? God doesn't require a beginning because he's God. EVERYTHING ELSE requires a beginning but not God because he's God.



But that isn't sufficient to define God. God ALSO has to:

1. Have as His favorite set of humans a small tribe of people who existed in the early Middle east
2. Have manifested himself as a man about 2000 years ago in Palestine with the express intent of having himself sacrificed to himself to atone mankind to him and forgive their sins (a very specific person)
Something in our existence has to not require a definition. If we say.. who created who.. then we would end up in an infinite loop of who created who that would ultimately nullify our existence..

.. we exist.. so in my opinion.. this is reason enough to because that something somewhere isn't subject to creation..

and you've read my thoughts on the physical world so you can see that I've ruled everything subject to time out of the equation.
 
Upvote 0

Saved.By.Grace

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2017
233
145
61
Brierley Hill
✟4,702.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hebrews 11:6 says all that we need to know!

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

AMEN!
 
Upvote 0

MrAnderson9

Helping You Achieve Perfetcion
Sep 28, 2017
110
23
40
North Carolina
✟1,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
But God doesn't? God doesn't require a beginning because he's God. EVERYTHING ELSE requires a beginning but not God because he's God.



But that isn't sufficient to define God. God ALSO has to:

1. Have as His favorite set of humans a small tribe of people who existed in the early Middle east
2. Have manifested himself as a man about 2000 years ago in Palestine with the express intent of having himself sacrificed to himself to atone mankind to him and forgive their sins (a very specific person)
I'm completely separating this from the religious attempts at describing "God". I also came to the conclusion that there is no correction factor.. Meaning that if you are deceived.. I don't see there being any intervention to "un decieve" someone. The only thing that we know to be absolute in my opinion.. are the absolutes.. Those are where the Creator shows us we are either correct.. or not correct.. People have believed many different things and there doesn't appear to be a correction factor.. it's just believe it until.....
 
Upvote 0

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,350
Frozen North
✟320,261.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
1. We are able to progress at different points in time.. and this progression can be calculated equally for all objects in existence.. meaning that at some point there was a reference from which to make each addition point.

meaning that in order for point C to exist.. there has to be point A.. the intial point to serve as the reference.. each point in existence.. is distinguished from other points via it's relation to the initial point. You can't progress. without having a point to progress from.. which is why I also state that infinity doesn't exist in our physical world.. because every point.. would be the same in reference to every other point.. causing a timeless progression less environment for physical objects.

Here, read this: Quantum causal relations: A causes B causes A

And more: Quantum correlations with no causal order

Given we're still learning about the nature of our universe and if there are possible scenarios where traditional causality may not apply, it means that any argument relying on traditional causality also may not be applicable to the origin of the universe as we know it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,380
Sydney, Australia.
✟237,324.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
The universe is time based showing progression from one moment to the next it allows us to see that the universe does in fact have a starting point.. and with this starting point it shows is that the universe could not be responsible for itself... for it would not be able to initiate its own beginning nor would it be able to create itself.

If time didn't exist then our physical world could not exist either seeing that time appears to be the measure of progression of physical objects.. time allows movement.. change.. progression etc for a physical world.. without time a physical world would have no progression and be stuck at 1 single moment..

God " The Intelligent Force that everything extends from" exists in Eternity.. outside of time.. This explains why hes sees our existence all at once.. knowing the beginning and the ending .. because we live linear in the physical world while "He" sees the entire beginning and end all at once. Picture a ruler.. we live from inch to inch starting at 0.. while God sees the entire ruler all at once.

Infinity does not exist in the physical.. we are progressing now which is evidence of a initial starting point.. because without an initial starting point in time.. there is no reference for each moment following..

This is a lot to grasp and it definitely leads further... but just wanted to start here with a basic interpretation of how I view Creation.. and the reason why.. feel free to share thoughts hopefully this sparks some interesting discussion..
Hello Mr Anderson.

When the word, 'infinity', is mentioned in a post I am usually surprised. Infinity by definition is without boundary, limitless, so necessarily beyond a finite definition. Hence, infinity as a concept is really beyond our understanding. We are finite creatures, thus our thought life is restricted, limited, bounded to a finite understanding.

The universe as an entity, an entity that we may never fully understand, though our finite knowledge of the universe is ever increasing, yes. But the increase in this knowledge is always a finite progression in knowledge. A finite progression of knowledge cannot reach an absolute knowledge of the universe.

Absolute knowledge requires a mind beyond time, beyond space, beyond assumption and axiom. Absolute knowledge in unlimited, unbounded knowledge, absolute knowledge is divine.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: MrAnderson9
Upvote 0

MrAnderson9

Helping You Achieve Perfetcion
Sep 28, 2017
110
23
40
North Carolina
✟1,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hello Mr Anderson.

When the word, 'infinity', is mentioned in a post I am usually surprised. Infinity by definition is without boundary, limitless, so necessarily beyond a finite definition. Hence, infinity as a concept is really beyond our understanding. We are finite creatures, thus our thought life is restricted, limited, bounded to a finite understanding.

The universe as an entity, an entity that we may never fully understand, though our finite knowledge of the universe is ever increasing, yes. But the increase in this knowledge is always a finite progression in knowledge. A finite progression of knowledge cannot reach an absolute knowledge of the universe.

Absolute knowledge requires a mind beyond time, beyond space, beyond assumption and axiom. Absolute knowledge in unlimited, unbounded knowledge, absolute knowledge is divine.
I agree.. and very well stated. I do however feel that we can reach a relative absolute.. being that any question we are capable of asking.. there is an answer we are capable of understanding. And I most definitely agree that true absolute knowledge is divine..
 
Upvote 0

MrAnderson9

Helping You Achieve Perfetcion
Sep 28, 2017
110
23
40
North Carolina
✟1,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
So, we could be in the Matrix.
I believe we are in a form of the "Matrix". Everything is subject to the "Creative Force".. there is nothing that guarantees that gravity .. electricity.. physics etc.. will function the it has historically tomorrow.. that's completely up to the "Creator".
 
Upvote 0

HitchSlap

PROUDLY PRIMATE
Aug 6, 2012
14,723
5,467
✟266,086.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I believe we are in a form of the "Matrix". Everything is subject to the "Creative Force".. there is nothing that guarantees that gravity .. electricity.. physics etc.. will function the it has historically tomorrow.. that's completely up to the "Creator".
Might account for the "Mandela effect," 'eh?
 
  • Haha
Reactions: MrAnderson9
Upvote 0