Absolute proof.. can't deny.. the earth is flat

Acts2:38Apologetics

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Another claim that is demonstrably false. Have you ever climbed a high mountain? The higher the altitude, the thinner the air becomes, and at some point you have to carry your own oxygen. You may have even experienced your ears popping and having to swallow to equalise the pressure in your inner ear when taking an elevator up in a tall building or driving up in the mountains. Your own experience tells you that the earth is not a sealed pressure vessel.
The gas molecules in the air have mass. Very little mass compared to most of what we engage with day to day, but enough for gravity to keep it from simply drifting out into space. The higher you go, the less dense the atmosphere. There isn't a sudden cut off point where there is atmosphere on one side and vacuum on the other, in fact the earth's atmosphere extends out past the moon, it is simply too thin to be measurable.

But we haven't been outside lower earth orbit. So how do we know the earths atmosphere extends out past the moon? The moon is supposed to be 225,000 miles away, (at its closest) and according to NASA, lower earth orbit is 1200 miles. And NASA is on record numerous times telling us they are hopeful to leave earths orbit soon.... So how can we know how far earths atmosphere is. How do we know the earth is 225,000 miles away if we haven't left lower earth orbit?

 
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prodromos

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But we haven't been outside lower earth orbit.
So certain of this are you?
After all, we did just park a large telescope well beyond the lower earth orbit.
<edit>
My apologies, it still has 98,000 miles to go. It is currently just under 800,000 miles from earth.
</edit>
 
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Acts2:38Apologetics

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So certain of this are you?
After all, we did just park a large telescope well beyond the lower earth orbit.
<edit>
My apologies, it still has 98,000 miles to go. It is currently just under 800,000 miles from earth.
</edit>
I'm only saying what NASA itself is saying. They're the ones saying we haven't been out of lower earth orbit.
 
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prodromos

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Obviously we have left lower earth orbit numerous times in order to leave retroreflectors on the moon's surface. These allow us to measure the distance to the moon with great precision by measuring how long a pulse of laser light takes to travel to the moon and back.
List of retroreflectors on the Moon - Wikipedia
 
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prodromos

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I'm only saying what NASA itself is saying. They're the ones saying we haven't been out of lower earth orbit.
For how long? Since the Mars rover mission?
Anyone can put together selectively edited clips taken out of context to make it look like they are saying what the editors want them to say.
 
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prodromos

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So I watched your video.
They aren't saying we haven't ever left lower earth orbit, just that they don't presently have the means, and they are specifically talking about humans leaving lower earth orbit.
They've launched numerous robotic explorers beyond lower earth orbit in the last few decades, but they don't require all the extra weight of life support systems and shielding needed for human travellers. The rockets that launched the Apollo lunar missions can no longer be built, as much of the knowledge needed to build them was in the heads of engineers who have since died. NASA also doesn't have the budget to build them even if they could.

Also, no one filmed the landing of the lunar modules. No such film exists. There is footage of the separation of the lunar module and the command module, since there were people on board both, and the filming of the launch of the lunar module from the moons surface was done with a remote camera placed by the astronauts which automatically tracked its flight.

No doubt you will post the famous "earth rise" footage and claim it can't be real because the moon does not rotate relative to the earth. (Hint: the video was taken from the command module which was orbiting around the moon, not from the moon's surface)
 
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Acts2:38Apologetics

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Why don't we presently have the means.
We're supposed to have already done it. It was one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind remember? And then it appears we threw everything out and forgot we went.

Seriously, If we went to the moon 50 years ago, why aren't we living on it? I'm being serious. I work in engineering. Now, its not building rockets, its building roads, bridges, rail networks etc. You don't just throw away the technology of the biggest accomplishment mankind has ever achieved.
 
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prodromos

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Why don't we presently have the means.
We're supposed to have already done it. It was one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind remember? And then it appears we threw everything out and forgot we went.

Seriously, If we went to the moon 50 years ago, why aren't we living on it? I'm being serious. I work in engineering. Now, its not building rockets, its building roads, bridges, rail networks etc. You don't just throw away the technology of the biggest accomplishment mankind has ever achieved.
Welcome to the real world. The Saturn V rocket engines were extremely complex and many changes were made by the engineers on the fly as they faced and solved various challenges during construction and testing. Many of those changes were never put back into the blueprints, which is why anyone trying to build a new engine will have to re-solve many of the same issues the original engineers faced.
As it is, they no longer have to. Space-X have designed and built their own engines which are capable of lifting hundreds of tonnes into space. More than that, they are capable of being refuelled in orbit, so a mission to Mars doesn't have to launch with all the fuel, food, water and oxygen needed for the journey in one go. They are also designed to be reused multiple times whereas everything in the Apollo missions was one use only. Whatever money went into the building of the rockets was gone. Nothing got to be re-used again.
 
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prodromos

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Also, living on the moon has serious challenges. Ypu can't rely on regular deliveries of food, water and oxygen, so you need technology that can recycle everything, which also requires a great deal of energy.
You will also notice that the moon's surface is covered in craters. The earth has only a few craters from massive meteorites, everything smaller gets burnt up on entering the earth's atmosphere. On the moon you have no protection. An entire lunar colony could be wiped out with a single small meteorite hitting it, and meteorites hit the moon all the time. There is also the economics. There is no point investing billions of dollars in building a lunar infrastructure if there is no foreseeable return on you investment. What resources are there on the moon that make it worth the investment? None that I know of.
 
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Acts2:38Apologetics

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Also, living on the moon has serious challenges. Ypu can't rely on regular deliveries of food, water and oxygen, so you need technology that can recycle everything, which also requires a great deal of energy.
You will also notice that the moon's surface is covered in craters. The earth has only a few craters from massive meteorites, everything smaller gets burnt up on entering the earth's atmosphere. On the moon you have no protection. An entire lunar colony could be wiped out with a single small meteorite hitting it, and meteorites hit the moon all the time. There is also the economics. There is no point investing billions of dollars in building a lunar infrastructure if there is no foreseeable return on you investment. What resources are there on the moon that make it worth the investment? None that I know of.


The point is.

We went to the moon, and then we forgot everything it took to get us there. Thats the point I was making. For 50 years we haven't given the moon a thought, you're telling me that six visits to the moon is all we did and in those six visits we got ALL the information we ever needed and simply decided "well, been there, done that" Even IF they decided the surface was uninhabitable, surely there would be a radio tower there, some kind of transponder / transmitter.
 
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prodromos

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The point is.

We went to the moon, and then we forgot everything it took to get us there. Thats the point I was making. For 50 years we haven't given the moon a thought, you're telling me that six visits to the moon is all we did and in those six visits we got ALL the information we ever needed and simply decided "well, been there, done that" Even IF they decided the surface was uninhabitable, surely there would be a radio tower there, some kind of transponder / transmitter.
Powered by what? It isn't a simple exercise to replace the batteries. Everytime they had to perform maintenance on the Hubble Space telescope the cost was astronomical, and it orbits at 340 miles above the earth's surface. The cost of going to the moon, which they did a total of six times, is an order of magnitude more expensive and simply isn't sustainable if it isn't generating some income in return. I think most Americans preferred to have roads and bridges and hospitals being built and maintained over having bragging rights on the moon. Plus there was a completely different political climate in the USA after the Vietnam War was ended. The government simply didn't have the public support they would have needed to fund more missions.
 
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Torah Keeper

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I am not a flat-earther but I don't believe man has walked on the moon. Sure I grew up believing it. But I saw a documentary which got me curious. Bill Kaysing was a rocket engineer for Rocketdyne. He engineered the Saturn rockets for the moon missions. He explained the technical reasons why sending men to the moon in 1969 was impossible. Keep in mind this is the very guy who designed the Saturn rockets, the same "lost technology" as NASA claims. They don't have the tech because they never had it. Kaysing died and NASA claims no man alive today can remake the Saturn rockets. Kaysing said they never went to the moon. They crashed into the ocean. Any supposed signals from the Apollo crew from the moon, were really just beamed up to the moon from Earth, and bounced back to Earth. Hence the many amateur claims of "I got signals of Apollo coming from the moon!"

But Kaysing's book is the tip of the iceberg. Many other whistleblowers came forward. Bart Sibrel, a filmaker, has released some interesting videos and a book, "Moon Man". David Percy, a photographer, along with others, also made a documentary showing why the footage was fake.

I've seen enough evidence by now to say with confidence no man can go above low earth orbit and survive. Russia learned this when all the animals they sent into space, died. I've seen Apollo photos with wires, overhead lights, framing of a building, shots cropped into photos, an astronaut with his glove off and bare hand exposed, foreground/background cut lines, repeated use of backdrops at supposedly different locations, reflections of stagehands in astronaut helmets, and more. I encourage anyone to do their own research.

In my opinion, there are 3 possibilities:
  1. Man did not go to the moon.
  2. Man went to the moon.
  3. Nothing, man or machine, has been to the moon.
Take your pick. But I firmly believe #2 is not true.

I decided to start another thread about the moon missions apart from flat earth, so as not to derail the thread. Stay tuned.
 
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Acts2:38Apologetics

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Powered by what? It isn't a simple exercise to replace the batteries. Everytime they had to perform maintenance on the Hubble Space telescope the cost was astronomical, and it orbits at 340 miles above the earth's surface. The cost of going to the moon, which they did a total of six times, is an order of magnitude more expensive and simply isn't sustainable if it isn't generating some income in return. I think most Americans preferred to have roads and bridges and hospitals being built and maintained over having bragging rights on the moon. Plus there was a completely different political climate in the USA after the Vietnam War was ended. The government simply didn't have the public support they would have needed to fund more missions.

When has the cost of something ever stopped them? I'm sorry but i don't buy your reasoning at all. Money has never stopped America from doing anything. Look at their current debt situation. What is the NASA daily budget? What is their current debt ceiling. The moon landing should have been the leverage for more money for the space program. Like I said. You would expect there to be some kind of infrastructure there.
 
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JacksBratt

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First off, 448,000 mph is nothing compared to the distance between the stars. It's 4.37 light years to Alpha Centauri, the nearest star. Second, all the stars in our galaxy are rotating around the galactic center. So the nearby stars are moving mostly the same way we are. We're not moving 448,000 mph relative to them. That's the speed we (and they) are going around the center.
The thing is.... all these stars in their respective constellations... are not sitting out there as a group. Hanging out at the same number of light years away as some sculpture or group in a confined area as a mobile in space hanging together with magic wire.
No, they are all at random distances from us and not attached to one another.

As a result, just like the trees and fields off to the side, as you drive down the road.... these stars wouldn't be seen in their present pattern.. but.. as we move, spin and travel through this "galaxy"... there would be discrepancies in how we see them in relation to each other... After 2, 4, 6 thousand years... they would change and not even resemble the patterns we see. It's just a fact.
 
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Yttrium

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As a result, just like the trees and fields off to the side, as you drive down the road.... these stars wouldn't be seen in their present pattern.. but.. as we move, spin and travel through this "galaxy"... there would be discrepancies in how we see them in relation to each other... After 2, 4, 6 thousand years... they would change and not even resemble the patterns we see. It's just a fact.

Right. They do.

We can measure the motions of the stars. Barnard's Star in particular is moving faster than most relative to us, although it still takes hundreds of years for it to move noticeably to the naked eye. The shapes of the constellations do shift over thousands of years.
 
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Paul4JC

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i just realized oneness believers can't post on any "christian" threads, and don't really see a point in sticking around, so I've requested my account be closed.

God bless all, have fun discussing the big issues, much love in Jesus.
I don't think that's required in the "conspiracy theories" forum. God bless you too.
 
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trunks2k

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When has the cost of something ever stopped them? I'm sorry but i don't buy your reasoning at all. Money has never stopped America from doing anything.

Money stops us from doing stuff all. the. time. If something costs to much in relation to our will to do it, we don't do it. There's a reason we don't have universal healthcare. Or a real high speed train line down the eastern seaboard. Our collective desire for those things doesn't outweigh the cost of those things.

We have had no real reason to go back to the moon for how much it costs. Doing so back in the 60s and 70s was primarily about competing with Russia*. We figured spending a ton of money was worth it to show up Russia and prove we are the technologically superior nation. Once we did it, and it was clear Russia wasn't going to try and keep up or exceed us, there was no competition anymore. So no will to spend that much money. So we took away funding and scrapped several planned missions. It wasn't worth the money. What money remained in the NASA budget was better spent on different projects.

*Something important here - it would have been obvious to Russia if we had faked the Apollo Mission. They'd have had no problem tracking the flights and easily could figure out that transmissions weren't coming from the moon. They'd have been shouting that from the rooftops.
 
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JacksBratt

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Right. They do.

We can measure the motions of the stars. Barnard's Star in particular is moving faster than most relative to us, although it still takes hundreds of years for it to move noticeably to the naked eye. The shapes of the constellations do shift over thousands of years.
Well, personally, given the speed at which we are stated to be moving around the sun, as it rotates around the galaxy and as the galaxy rotates itself... I don't see how these constilations have remained in their seemingly static formations.... for even 1000 years.
 
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