Absolute Predestination

JLB777

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before they can believe. Based on this we respond to the gospel and live a Holy Life. Because it is the nature of the New Birth to do this.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


Jesus believe and be saved.


When we hear the Gospel message we have faith.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17



It’s up to us to believe, and be saved.




JLB
 
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JLB777

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before they can believe. Based on this we respond to the gospel and live a Holy Life. Because it is the nature of the New Birth to do this.

Do you understand what is being taught here?


God predestined His 12 Apostles to sit on 12 thrones along with Him in the age to come, to reign and rule with Him.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28



JLB
 
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Dave L

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Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


Jesus believe and be saved.


When we hear the Gospel message we have faith.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17



It’s up to us to believe, and be saved.




JLB
No, if it is up to you, you are the savior and salvation is only for the self-righteous. God mercifully saves those who cannot believe or repent. He gives us a new heart, that discerns truth and believes and repents by nature.
 
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ClementofA

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As I said, man has free will but always willingly reacts to the reasons God uses to control him.

Would that "free will" of unbelievers ever allow them the free will to choose not to sin?

Would that "free will" of unbelievers allow them the free will to not sin when God enlightens them & provides them resistible grace to not sin?

Would that "free will" of unbelievers allow them the free will to believe in Christ when God enlightens them with the gospel & provides them resistible grace to either believe or not to believe in Christ?
 
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ClementofA

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God predestined His 12 Apostles to sit on 12 thrones along with Him in the age to come, to reign and rule with Him.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28



JLB

Even Judas?
 
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ClementofA

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The promise of being saved is to believe.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12



Please explain what more a person must do to be saved, than to believe.



JLB

Obey? Heb.5:9.
 
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Dave L

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Would that "free will" of unbelievers ever allow them the free will to choose not to sin?

Would that "free will" of unbelievers allow them the free will to not sin when God enlightens them & provides them resistible grace to not sin?

Would that "free will" of unbelievers allow them the free will to believe in Christ when God enlightens them with the gospel & provides them resistible grace to either believe or not to believe in Christ?
God directs all in the way he created for each to go. Yet people freely react basing their choices on the reasons he uses to control them.
 
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roman2819

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Thanks for this Dave, I have been looking at predestination and election a lot the last couple of days and this is affirmation that I need to study this more to grasp this understanding fully.
I believe you to be correct.

It is useful to distinguish between what the word "Predestination" means in the Bible, as compared to how many Christians are coming up with distorted theories that God decide on individual's redemption.

Predestination in the bible does not mean God choose to redeem Jack or Jane.
In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ... 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….

Note that the apostle used the word "BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" three times; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? This was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly just decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.
 
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roman2819

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While studying systematic theology on this subject, it came to my attention that the notion of supralapsarianism maintains a contradictory position with itself. It ascribes to God both a perfect and imperfect knowledge of events, in one case setting God outside of time so that he knows all things perfectly, but within the linear chronology when it comes time to disparage the idea of free will, arguing that God would have to know every possible choice and result, which, it is implied, he cannot.

Absolutely predestination, or preordination, vis a vis the Divine Decree, at least as it is understood by the extreme position, relegates all free will to the realm of illusion. We only think we have free will, though our free will choices are, in actual fact, the preordained choices God orchestrated for us to make. And then, when that chain of logic leads to the inevitable conclusion that preordained choices and actions ultimately excuse the choices that we didn't actually make (as they were preordained; they were our destiny, if you will), and that God is actually responsible for the sins we commit, we suddenly end up with disclaimers as shown in the quote given from the Westminster Confession: "God, from all eternity, did [...] freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills." So it happens because he wills it to happen. But even though he makes it happen, it's our fault when we do what he has forced us to do. And even though he forces our choices and actions, he's not forcing our choices and actions.

We have the free will to do exactly as what he has preordained that we should do. You can take any path you choose, as long as it's the one he has chosen for you.

The conclusion I have come to is that what God predestined is the end result, whether reward or punishment. And nowhere, in my opinion, is this more conspicuous than in the garden itself, which has given rise to so much discussion over the centuries concerning whether God wanted man to fall, caused man to fall, whether man was responsible for the fall, or whether God had some responsibility due to preordination, etc., etc., etc.

What I found after careful consideration is that God's will was that man should choose for himself if he fell or not. At the same time, God, having declared the end from the beginning, being himself outside of time, knew the choice man would make. When man made that choice, God's will was accomplished. And it was precisely due to his knowledge of what our choice would be that the Lamb was slain from the foundations of the earth.

Similarly, God, declaring the end from the beginning, being outside of time, knows each and every person who will answer his call. Knowing those who are his, and those who are not ... knowing who will repent, and who are never to be retrieved, God has fashioned some of us to be vessels of wrath and some not. Some are predestined to salvation, because that is the destiny of those whom he knew would answer the call. Others are predestined to destruction, because that is the destiny of those whom he knew would not answer the call.

In my view, all other explanations show God to be tyrannical, hateful, spiteful, a respecter of persons, etc., deciding who will be saved and who will not, making us sin through choices we can't control, but then blaming us for the deeds, allowing some to have faith, but others to reject it. The list goes on.

The only solution I could ever find is that God willed that we should have the free will to make our own choices, and to suffer the consequences, for good or ill. And knowing the choices, he planned accordingly, providing a means of redemption for those who would hear the shepherd's voice.

Romans 8:28-30 — And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Those are my thoughts on the subject.


In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ... 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….

Note that the apostle used the word "BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" three times; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.
 
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roman2819

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"Since God can't know LFW choices before they occur, He can't decide in advance who will receive faith & so be saved."

I disagree with that -- it is limiting the Foreknowledge of God -- which is the BASIS for predestination.

God foreknows who will believe and persevere in believing.

The word "Predestination" as used in the Bible does not mean God choose individuals. Instead, it means that he had always preplanned to offer redemption to the Gentiles as well. It is up to each person to decide whether to accept or reject the offer.

In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ... 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….

Note that the apostle used the word "BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" three times; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.
 
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JLB777

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No, if it is up to you, you are the savior and salvation is only for the self-righteous. God mercifully saves those who cannot believe or repent. He gives us a new heart, that discerns truth and believes and repents by nature.


It’s up to each of us to believe the Gospel or not.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


JLB
 
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JLB777

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The word "Predestination" as used in the Bible does not mean God choose individuals. Instead, it means that he had always preplanned to offer redemption to the Gentiles as well. It is up to each person to decide whether to accept or reject the offer.

In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ... 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….

Note that the apostle used the word "BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" three times; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.


Amen.



Also, that God foresaw those who would choose to be in Christ, and He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
Ephesians 1:3-6


  • just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world



Then to this we add the understanding of the wheat and the tares.

Tares were never part of the plan for redemption.





JLB
 
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Dave L

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It’s up to each of us to believe the Gospel or not.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


JLB
If it is up to you to believe, it is up to you to save yourself. True believers need not chose to believe anymore than you need to choose to believe the chair you sit in exists. They believe because of experiencing the New Birth.
 
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JLB777

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If it is up to you to believe, it is up to you to save yourself. True believers need not chose to believe anymore than you need to choose to believe the chair you sit in exists. They believe because of experiencing the New Birth.


Sorry, but that is totally unbiblical.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Notice this verse doesn’t say what you are claiming.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever is predestined to be saved should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16





JLB
 
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AFrazier

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In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ... 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….

Note that the apostle used the word "BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" three times; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.
I don't disagree with the portion you've offered. However, there is more to it, and it does touch on the personal level. Jews and Gentiles alike are predestined to salvation. But those (nondescript individuals) whom he foreknew, he also predestined.
 
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YeshuaFan

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That came from the OT.



Nothing of what you did, huh? So you are a universalist.
No, as the blood of jesus atoned for just the chosen elect of God, who prove and confirm their election by trusting in Him to save them!
 
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YeshuaFan

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Sorry, but that is totally unbiblical.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Notice this verse doesn’t say what you are claiming.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever is predestined to be saved should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16





JLB
Only those whom the Father chose to give to jesus to save shall be though!
 
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