Absolute Predestination

[Albion]

The Bible verses can be interpreted as supporting free will--the idea that we make our decisions as we choose--but not the more extreme position that is called "libertarian free will."

 

[ClementofA]

The Bible verses can be interpreted as supporting free will--the idea that we make our decisions as we choose--but not the more extreme position that is called "libertarian free will."

What's the difference between the two? How do you define "free will" & "libertarian free will"? Do humans have the power of free contrary choice which Calvinists deny and reject?

 

[JM]

There is no reason to continue the dialogue because we are arguing about surface issues instead of presuppositions or worldviews. The root, the foundation, of our disagreement starts with what we presuppose.

I will leave you with this: It’s all in black and white…and grey!

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[klutedavid]

We have many good conversations about predestination. But we seldom define the degree to which predestination affects the universe and all.

At the least it appears many think God imagined the universe before he created it. Let it run its own course without his intervention. And then created what he saw. Making it unchangeable and therefore predestined to happen just as he foresaw it.

Another view, the most extreme says: God created all, including every thought and act of every creature in the universe when he created the universe. That not a grain of sand on the furthest planet shifts position without God who also created its path and movements in the appointed time.

Both extremes depend on God’s perfect knowledge. If God only energizes but doesn’t control all, he then must watch and learn what might or might not happen. And this would mean he is not all knowing as the bible says.

Other theories emerge but the Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1; God's Eternal Decree defines biblical predestination this way.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

So as I understand, we freely choose for the reasons God created with us, to base our choices on. As we meet up with them at the right time in life.

This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.

I believe in two levels of predestination, divine decrees that cannot be altered.

The first divine decree, Christ was predestined.

The second divine decree, man is given the choice to accept or reject the Christ.

What God has established cannot be annulled.

 

[Dave L]

I believe in two levels of predestination, divine decrees that cannot be altered.

The first divine decree, Christ was predestined.

The second divine decree, man is given the choice to accept or reject the Christ.

What God has established cannot be annulled.

As I said, man has free will but always willingly reacts to the reasons God uses to control him.

 

[JLB777]

“Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,” (Romans 1:1)

“For the one who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedperson. Likewise the one who is called while free is a slave of Christ.” (1 Corinthians 7:22)

“For am I now making an appeal to people or to God? Or am I seeking to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ.” (Galatians 1:10)

“Epaphras, who is one of you, greets you, a slave of Christ always struggling on behalf of you in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12)

----------

“and they will come to their senses and escape the devil’s trap where they are held captive to do his will.” (2 Timothy 2:26)

“Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” (1 Timothy 3:7)

etc.

Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27




Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21




God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8



Here are those who will receive eternal life on the Day of Judgement-

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8

 

[Dave L]

Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27




Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21




God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8



Here are those who will receive eternal life on the Day of Judgement-

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8

God predestined true believers to overcome.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

 

[JLB777]

God predestined true believers to overcome.

God predestined His 12 Apostles to sit on 12 thrones along with Him in the age to come, to reign and rule with Him.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28



JLB

 

[JLB777]

God predestined true believers to overcome.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10)

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9





JLB

 

[Dave L]

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9





JLB

“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4)

 

[Dave L]

It

God predestined His 12 Apostles to sit on 12 thrones along with Him in the age to come, to reign and rule with Him.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28



JLB

It's the nature of the New Birth to follow Christ and not sin.

 

[JLB777]

“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4)

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8



JLB

 

[Dave L]

He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8



JLB

“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4)

 

[JLB777]

It

It's the nature of the New Birth to follow Christ and not sin.

Yes and those who have that nature that is empowered by the Spirit must live according to the Spirit within them, and not the sinful desires of the flesh.



There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1



Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13



For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
Galatians 6:8




JLB

 

[JLB777]

“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4)

Those who overcome will not be blotted out of the book of life.



He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5



JLB

 

[Dave L]

Those who overcome will not be blotted out of the book of life.



He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5



JLB

That's a great promise. But if someone does not overcome, they were never saved in the first place.

 

[JLB777]

That's a great promise. But if someone does not overcome, they were never saved in the first place.

That’s you opinion.

 

[JLB777]

That's a great promise. But if someone does not overcome, they were never saved in the first place.

God predestined His 12 Apostles to sit on 12 thrones along with Him in the age to come, to reign and rule with Him.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28



JLB

 

[JLB777]

That's a great promise. But if someone does not overcome, they were never saved in the first place.

The promise of being saved is to believe.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12



Please explain what more a person must do to be saved, than to believe.



JLB

 

[Dave L]

The promise of being saved is to believe.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12



Please explain what more a person must do to be saved, than to believe.



JLB

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before they can believe. Based on this we respond to the gospel and live a Holy Life. Because it is the nature of the New Birth to do this.