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Featured Absolute Predestination

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Dave L, Oct 20, 2018.

  1. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We have many good conversations about predestination. But we seldom define the degree to which predestination affects the universe and all.

    At the least it appears many think God imagined the universe before he created it. Let it run its own course without his intervention. And then created what he saw. Making it unchangeable and therefore predestined to happen just as he foresaw it.

    Another view, the most extreme says: God created all, including every thought and act of every creature in the universe when he created the universe. That not a grain of sand on the furthest planet shifts position without God who also created its path and movements in the appointed time.

    Both extremes depend on God’s perfect knowledge. If God only energizes but doesn’t control all, he then must watch and learn what might or might not happen. And this would mean he is not all knowing as the bible says.

    Other theories emerge but the Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1; God's Eternal Decree defines biblical predestination this way.

    1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

    So as I understand, we freely choose for the reasons God created with us, to base our choices on. As we meet up with them at the right time in life.

    This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.
     
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  2. Southernscotty

    Southernscotty Well-Known Member Supporter Angels Team

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    Thanks for this Dave, I have been looking at predestination and election a lot the last couple of days and this is affirmation that I need to study this more to grasp this understanding fully.
    I believe you to be correct.
     
  3. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Sounds contradictory and double talk to me. If God is in control of every particular thing, as Calvinists would have it, then we are but puppets. Choice is no choice if there is only one option. What God ordained was for people to have free will, contrary to Calvinism, and that resolves the problem of evil.
     
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  4. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How can we be puppets if we always choose what we want?
     
  5. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    There is no "choice" if there is only one option. Just like I said.
     
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But, you always choose what you think is the best option.
     
  7. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    I'm talking about real options, not imaginary options one construes in their own mind. Under Calvinism there are no real options. People are puppets under Calvinism.
     
  8. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All of your choices are for the reasons you think best.
     
  9. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Already answered.
     
  10. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You have free will. Why argue when we both say the same thing?
     
  11. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Well, that seems to be the point at which a mistake is made. We all probably agree that God ordered the Universe, that he controls all things, etc, but predestination is normally understood in connection with election--the idea that he chose those who would receive Faith and so be saved. Consider the construction of the word itself--pre (in advance) destination (where we are headed). It doesn't cover everything else in life.

    It is not implied by that doctrine that every last action and thought we do or have has been scripted in advance by God, just that that matter of the individual's salvation--or not--has been settled.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  12. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    I think of Calvinistic predestination as "the wrong wrench". If a person was working on a car and needed to remove a bolt, he would pick up a wrench and try to turn the bolt. If the wrench didn't fit the bolt, he would know the wrench was the wrong size. For a brief period he would not know what size wrench he needed, only that for now he had the wrong one.

    Calvinistic predestination cannot be supported by the bible, simply because it does not allow God to change His mind, as the bible clearly describes Him doing. We may not know all the answers to every question, but we know that Calvin's ideas are wrong.
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I don't believe it is possible to show, in the Bible, a case of God predestining someone to salvation through the gift of Faith in Christ...and then rescinding that decision.
     
  14. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If God changes his mind, it would be to imperfection. All of his decrees are eternal and perfect. And therefore unchangeable. If God seems to change his mind in scripture at times, it was part of his perfect unchangeable decree to do so.
     
  15. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    See Exodus 32, especially at 32:14:

    Exo 32:14
    And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
     
  16. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, as I said, this he predestined along with all other seeming changes. The decree would not be perfect otherwise and lacking foresight.
     
  17. 1am3laine

    1am3laine Active Member

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  18. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    From a Calvinist, do you even know what Calvinism teaches?

    The doctrine of "predestination" has been so blurred, that nobody takes the time to study anymore.

    What is the goal of "predestination"? Is it the decree by God that says a person will walk this way with no choice in the mater what-so-ever? No.

    WHat is the goal of "predestination"? Is it the decree by God that says I'm going to save or damn you whether you like it or not? No.

    According to Romans 8:29, the goal of predestination is "to be conformed to the image of the Son".

    And because so, we have gained an inheritance (Eph. 1:11), adoption (Eph. 1:5).

    Predestination sets the goal, not the path, and not the will.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
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  19. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I think that is correct and I would add, God knows us perfectly, that is why He know what we will chose. And when one knows what people will chose, it is easy to see the future and it is also possible to guide things to certain direction by making certain things to happen as God has done.
     
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  20. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    predestination comes after choice, not before one is born.

    Each and every day we are given the choice of life our death.

    Choose death and you are predestined to die
    Choose life and you are predestined to live,
     
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